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I’m surprised that people are still surprised by this, but then I’ve gotten pretty cynical at this point. This phenomenon goes way deeper than people not carin

I’m surprised that people are still surprised by this, but then I’ve gotten pretty cynical at this point. This phenomenon goes way deeper than people not caring about privacy. It underlies everything from the bystander effect [1], to the Nuremberg defence [2], and everything in between. People just don’t want to organize, generally speaking. The people who do usually end up as part of the elite. The rest are just focused on their individual lives. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders

TeMPOraL 7y ago
You could argue that it's not that people don't want to organize, it's that they can't, because of structural reasons. Scott Alexander wrote a lot of words going deep into this problem: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/.
- chongli 7y ago
  I’ve read that piece many times. It’s frustrating because I could point to it for all societal problems and it doesn’t offer any solutions.
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
> People just don’t want to organize, generally speaking They used to far more. The eighties and nineties disassembled many of the places and means to organising. Disassembly of civic community, unions, restrictions on demos, decline of social societies such as Lions Clubs and others. Now we're all individuals, organising alone.
- acqq 7y ago
  Related: https://splinternews.com/organized-labor-is-in-a-life-and-death-struggle-be-ver-1823353601 https://splinternews.com/organized-labor-is-in-a-life-and-de... "For an entire century, the corporate class in America has dreamed of destroying organized labor, which eats into their ability to amass endless profits. They’ve chipped away at unions for 40 years. Now, it is no exaggeration to say that they are two steps away from total victory." ... "This is a very scary time. Take it seriously."
  - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
    When you have unions in the United States like the American Federation of Teachers, it's easy to celebrate the death of unions. That union is doing more damage to this country than just about anything else I can think of. I'd say a close second would be the Fraternal Order of Police. EDIT: I really fucking hate when people edit their comment after people have already replied to it.
    - philliphaydon 7y ago
      I watched that doco, waiting for superman. Man the education system is crazy if it’s true.
    - acqq 7y ago
      > EDIT: I really fucking hate when people edit their comment after people have already replied to it. My message is just a link and the quote from there and it was just that since the beginning, so do you really think I've edited anything that changed the meaning the message, or is that "edit" of yours unrelated to my message?
      - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
        I apologize, I remember the comment being longer. I also did not mean it as an attack against you specifically, more that the act itself is annoying (not necessarily that you had ill intent, it could entirely be coincidental). I realize this is HN and we are expected/encouraged to interpret people's meanings with the best possible intent, but rereading that edit I can understand why you would feel otherwise.
        acqq 7y ago
        > (not necessarily that you had ill intent, it could entirely be coincidental) I'm sorry, but in this case I'm absolutely sure there was never anything but the quote there, and the confusion is due to some other comment.
- PavlovsCat 7y ago
  Noam Chomsky about the lack of continuity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5meC4Z61qGg&t=15m45s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5meC4Z61qGg&t=15m45s
VvR-Ox 7y ago
This is what I criticize about the increasing pseudo-individualism in the western world. If all of us want to be completely different from all the others we don't have many things in common anymore and there is no reason to unionize or fight for the same goals. Every little protest or group can then be shut down or silenced just by stating how they are just representing a really tiny minority of all the people. I know this could spark some debate but I think it is a point where Marx was right all along. It's about the things we have in common that help us to collaborate to tackle our problems and we are the strongest when working together. I've gotten cynical as well as I feel like constantly talking to the bus full of the people who are interested in their freedom which just doesn't arrive somewhere.
y4mi 7y ago
you do realize that the bystander effect hasnt actually been observed in reality, right? i mean, just look and the examples in the article. every single one had people reporting it. and the fiasco that started that conjecture was `Kitty Genovese` murder, which was repeatedly reported as well. the police just didnt care enough to actually dispatch someone at that day. or are you insinuating that random people from the street should interfere if there is an armed perpetrator running around knifing people? or `Raymond Zack`, ...how do you expect random people to actually do something? he wanted to kill himself. if he wanted to get out of the water, he couldve done it within the 60 minutes he was just standing in the water. and after he collapsed someone even went in. despite the fact that its incredibly dangerous to try to help someone who is actively trying to kill himself. if that doesnt disprove the conjecture by itself, idk what could. each and every example is just showing that there are tragedies which the police arent able to handle. that doesn't mean that the bystander effect is actually real.

TeMPOraL 7y ago

You could argue that it's not that people don't want to organize, it's that they can't, because of structural reasons. Scott Alexander wrote a lot of words going deep into this problem: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/.

chongli 7y ago
I’ve read that piece many times. It’s frustrating because I could point to it for all societal problems and it doesn’t offer any solutions.

NeedMoreTea 7y ago

> People just don’t want to organize, generally speaking They used to far more. The eighties and nineties disassembled many of the places and means to organising. Disassembly of civic community, unions, restrictions on demos, decline of social societies such as Lions Clubs and others. Now we're all individuals, organising alone.

acqq 7y ago
Related: https://splinternews.com/organized-labor-is-in-a-life-and-death-struggle-be-ver-1823353601 https://splinternews.com/organized-labor-is-in-a-life-and-de... "For an entire century, the corporate class in America has dreamed of destroying organized labor, which eats into their ability to amass endless profits. They’ve chipped away at unions for 40 years. Now, it is no exaggeration to say that they are two steps away from total victory." ... "This is a very scary time. Take it seriously."
- OnlineGladiator 7y ago
  When you have unions in the United States like the American Federation of Teachers, it's easy to celebrate the death of unions. That union is doing more damage to this country than just about anything else I can think of. I'd say a close second would be the Fraternal Order of Police. EDIT: I really fucking hate when people edit their comment after people have already replied to it.
  - philliphaydon 7y ago
    I watched that doco, waiting for superman. Man the education system is crazy if it’s true.
  - acqq 7y ago
    > EDIT: I really fucking hate when people edit their comment after people have already replied to it. My message is just a link and the quote from there and it was just that since the beginning, so do you really think I've edited anything that changed the meaning the message, or is that "edit" of yours unrelated to my message?
    - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
      I apologize, I remember the comment being longer. I also did not mean it as an attack against you specifically, more that the act itself is annoying (not necessarily that you had ill intent, it could entirely be coincidental). I realize this is HN and we are expected/encouraged to interpret people's meanings with the best possible intent, but rereading that edit I can understand why you would feel otherwise.
      - acqq 7y ago
        > (not necessarily that you had ill intent, it could entirely be coincidental) I'm sorry, but in this case I'm absolutely sure there was never anything but the quote there, and the confusion is due to some other comment.
PavlovsCat 7y ago
Noam Chomsky about the lack of continuity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5meC4Z61qGg&t=15m45s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5meC4Z61qGg&t=15m45s

VvR-Ox 7y ago

This is what I criticize about the increasing pseudo-individualism in the western world. If all of us want to be completely different from all the others we don't have many things in common anymore and there is no reason to unionize or fight for the same goals. Every little protest or group can then be shut down or silenced just by stating how they are just representing a really tiny minority of all the people. I know this could spark some debate but I think it is a point where Marx was right all along. It's about the things we have in common that help us to collaborate to tackle our problems and we are the strongest when working together. I've gotten cynical as well as I feel like constantly talking to the bus full of the people who are interested in their freedom which just doesn't arrive somewhere.

y4mi 7y ago

you do realize that the bystander effect hasnt actually been observed in reality, right? i mean, just look and the examples in the article. every single one had people reporting it. and the fiasco that started that conjecture was `Kitty Genovese` murder, which was repeatedly reported as well. the police just didnt care enough to actually dispatch someone at that day. or are you insinuating that random people from the street should interfere if there is an armed perpetrator running around knifing people? or `Raymond Zack`, ...how do you expect random people to actually do something? he wanted to kill himself. if he wanted to get out of the water, he couldve done it within the 60 minutes he was just standing in the water. and after he collapsed someone even went in. despite the fact that its incredibly dangerous to try to help someone who is actively trying to kill himself. if that doesnt disprove the conjecture by itself, idk what could. each and every example is just showing that there are tragedies which the police arent able to handle. that doesn't mean that the bystander effect is actually real.