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It's arguable, but I'd say that the real Internet is like that, at least in well-connected places like the US. I cannot imagine the act of God necessary to sto

It's arguable, but I'd say that the real Internet is like that, at least in well-connected places like the US. I cannot imagine the act of God necessary to stop Americans from accessing Google.

danenania 16y ago
You know, it seems that way, but Americans might be the most docile population on earth. There's no way I'd believe they could get away with all the shit they have in the last decade with nothing but token complaints from the masses if it hadn't already happened. If the end of the internet in America was decreed tomorrow, sure it would be a monumental logistical challenge for the NSA, but there's always the Fed to provide them with whatever budget they need, and given what Americans are already perfectly willing to put up with, it isn't likely they'd do anything but roll over after a few sham demonstrations in designated sham demonstration areas. It's depressing, but I think it's important for us to be realistic about how bad the situation really is if we're ever going to do something serious about fixing it. The reason we still have most of the privileges we do isn't because we're too powerful to have them taken away from us, it's because there hasn't yet been a need to take them away, or because we haven't (yet) elected someone with that sort of style (we certainly HAVE been too close for comfort). I mean, America is effectively bankrolling the Egyptian censorship. There clearly aren't any qualms with the tactics.
- jemfinch 16y ago
  Americans may be docile, but businesses and corporations are not. What do you think the proprietors of the thousands of POPs across America are going to tell the feds who come to shut them down? What do you think Google or Microsoft or Facebook are going to say when the government tries to cut off their primary source of income? Do you really think the same corporations that extensively lobby the government now are going to sit idly by while the government shuts this Internet thing down?
  - danenania 16y ago
    "What do you think Google or Microsoft or Facebook are going to say when the government tries to cut off their primary source of income?" They're going to say: "how much will you pay us to help you do it?" The answer will be "a lot" as it's always been. And the answer if they don't comply will be "you're finished". Standard mafioso tactics. Are you really expecting giant corporations to have principles at all, not to mention principles they are willing to sacrifice themselves for? Anyone within who suggests they should will hastily be shown the door. That's how the modern corporation is structured. The filthily rich throughout history haven't exactly been the harbingers of revolution.
    - JoachimSchipper 16y ago
      > The filthily rich throughout history haven't exactly been the harbingers of revolution. Actually, more than one revolution was an attempt by the rich to overthrow the powerful.
      - danenania 16y ago
        Of course they will try to manipulate the situation, but will you see them on the street? It's not really the point though. Perhaps I'm wrong about the importance of the wealthy in revolutions throughout history. The point is it's naive to expect giant corporations to take enormous risks in defying government power. Wealthy individuals? Perhaps. Perhaps small businesses or startups. But not big corporations--they are too profit-centered and conservative and they have too much to lose. Just look at Vodafone's complicit behavior in Egypt. It's a direct parallel.
    - CWuestefeld 16y ago
      Agreed. Given a way to frame it so that it seems like it's working in the interest of "the people", they'll be happy to lay down on their swords. Really, this kind of things happens all the time. Corporations are happy to be handicapped when the same handicap presents an even greater barrier to competition. Economists even have a term for this: "rent seeking" (see https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Rent_seeking https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Rent_seeking ) The regulations that hobble the pharmaceutical industry today (you can debate about whether they're good or not; this isn't the point) were initially sought by the industry, in order to weed out snake oil charlatans. A significant early backer of gun control regulation was the Ruger corporation, because the regulations were structured in a way that affected imports (like Beretta) much more severely.
jacquesm 16y ago
Take out a few core locations and you'd have a very hard time getting to google, or most other sites for that matter. All it takes for the vast majority of the internet to become unusable for the larger fraction of the population is to take the .com, .net and .org TLDs down. Your packets will still route but where do you want them to go? It would take long enough for people to regroup and find work-arounds that more permanent ways of blocking access could be rolled out.
- jemfinch 16y ago
  > Take out a few core locations and you'd have a very hard time getting to google, or most other sites for that matter. Definitely untrue. How familiar are you with how the Internet works? Google and other major websites are massively multihomed: they peer with tens or hundreds or perhaps thousands of other ISPs and backbones in as many different peering points around the world. > All it takes for the vast majority of the internet to become unusable for the larger fraction of the population is to take the .com, .net and .org TLDs down. 8.8.8.8 is an easy enough number to memorize. So is 8.8.4.4. How long do you think it would DNS admins there or anywhere else to fix their servers not to flush their caches? Certainly less time than it would take the US government to shut down thousands of redundant peering points.
  - Locke1689 16y ago
    How familiar are you with how the Internet works? If you read any recent DS papers you'd notice that Tier-1 ASes follow a power law distribution. You'd only have to shut down a handful of peering ASes to cripple BGP routing in the US.
    - jemfinch 16y ago
      The thing that makes those ASes Tier-1 is that they have so many peering points. You seem to be presuming that they're as easy to shut down as cutting the power to a few POPs, but they're not. How many POPs would you have to take out to stop Americans from getting to Google?

It's arguable, but I'd say that the real Internet is like that, at least in well-connected places like the US. I cannot imagine the act of God necessary to stop Americans from accessing Google.

danenania 16y ago

You know, it seems that way, but Americans might be the most docile population on earth. There's no way I'd believe they could get away with all the shit they have in the last decade with nothing but token complaints from the masses if it hadn't already happened. If the end of the internet in America was decreed tomorrow, sure it would be a monumental logistical challenge for the NSA, but there's always the Fed to provide them with whatever budget they need, and given what Americans are already perfectly willing to put up with, it isn't likely they'd do anything but roll over after a few sham demonstrations in designated sham demonstration areas. It's depressing, but I think it's important for us to be realistic about how bad the situation really is if we're ever going to do something serious about fixing it. The reason we still have most of the privileges we do isn't because we're too powerful to have them taken away from us, it's because there hasn't yet been a need to take them away, or because we haven't (yet) elected someone with that sort of style (we certainly HAVE been too close for comfort). I mean, America is effectively bankrolling the Egyptian censorship. There clearly aren't any qualms with the tactics.

jemfinch 16y ago
Americans may be docile, but businesses and corporations are not. What do you think the proprietors of the thousands of POPs across America are going to tell the feds who come to shut them down? What do you think Google or Microsoft or Facebook are going to say when the government tries to cut off their primary source of income? Do you really think the same corporations that extensively lobby the government now are going to sit idly by while the government shuts this Internet thing down?
- danenania 16y ago
  "What do you think Google or Microsoft or Facebook are going to say when the government tries to cut off their primary source of income?" They're going to say: "how much will you pay us to help you do it?" The answer will be "a lot" as it's always been. And the answer if they don't comply will be "you're finished". Standard mafioso tactics. Are you really expecting giant corporations to have principles at all, not to mention principles they are willing to sacrifice themselves for? Anyone within who suggests they should will hastily be shown the door. That's how the modern corporation is structured. The filthily rich throughout history haven't exactly been the harbingers of revolution.
  - JoachimSchipper 16y ago
    > The filthily rich throughout history haven't exactly been the harbingers of revolution. Actually, more than one revolution was an attempt by the rich to overthrow the powerful.
    - danenania 16y ago
      Of course they will try to manipulate the situation, but will you see them on the street? It's not really the point though. Perhaps I'm wrong about the importance of the wealthy in revolutions throughout history. The point is it's naive to expect giant corporations to take enormous risks in defying government power. Wealthy individuals? Perhaps. Perhaps small businesses or startups. But not big corporations--they are too profit-centered and conservative and they have too much to lose. Just look at Vodafone's complicit behavior in Egypt. It's a direct parallel.
  - CWuestefeld 16y ago
    Agreed. Given a way to frame it so that it seems like it's working in the interest of "the people", they'll be happy to lay down on their swords. Really, this kind of things happens all the time. Corporations are happy to be handicapped when the same handicap presents an even greater barrier to competition. Economists even have a term for this: "rent seeking" (see https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Rent_seeking https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Rent_seeking ) The regulations that hobble the pharmaceutical industry today (you can debate about whether they're good or not; this isn't the point) were initially sought by the industry, in order to weed out snake oil charlatans. A significant early backer of gun control regulation was the Ruger corporation, because the regulations were structured in a way that affected imports (like Beretta) much more severely.

jacquesm 16y ago

Take out a few core locations and you'd have a very hard time getting to google, or most other sites for that matter. All it takes for the vast majority of the internet to become unusable for the larger fraction of the population is to take the .com, .net and .org TLDs down. Your packets will still route but where do you want them to go? It would take long enough for people to regroup and find work-arounds that more permanent ways of blocking access could be rolled out.

jemfinch 16y ago
> Take out a few core locations and you'd have a very hard time getting to google, or most other sites for that matter. Definitely untrue. How familiar are you with how the Internet works? Google and other major websites are massively multihomed: they peer with tens or hundreds or perhaps thousands of other ISPs and backbones in as many different peering points around the world. > All it takes for the vast majority of the internet to become unusable for the larger fraction of the population is to take the .com, .net and .org TLDs down. 8.8.8.8 is an easy enough number to memorize. So is 8.8.4.4. How long do you think it would DNS admins there or anywhere else to fix their servers not to flush their caches? Certainly less time than it would take the US government to shut down thousands of redundant peering points.
- Locke1689 16y ago
  How familiar are you with how the Internet works? If you read any recent DS papers you'd notice that Tier-1 ASes follow a power law distribution. You'd only have to shut down a handful of peering ASes to cripple BGP routing in the US.
  - jemfinch 16y ago
    The thing that makes those ASes Tier-1 is that they have so many peering points. You seem to be presuming that they're as easy to shut down as cutting the power to a few POPs, but they're not. How many POPs would you have to take out to stop Americans from getting to Google?