7 ms·

I remember Mary Cain’s amazing promise. It’s sad to see how this turned out. One of the things that most turned me off of competitive running in my personal l

I remember Mary Cain’s amazing promise. It’s sad to see how this turned out. One of the things that most turned me off of competitive running in my personal life is when I realized that the lighter you are the faster you can run long distance. It just turns into an unhealthy feedback loop where all your training can be superseded by someone that just weighs less. I don’t want to do a sport that rewards anorexia and unhealthy body weights. Better to just run for fun and the health benefits.

microcolonel 7y ago
Athletic competition is unhealthy regardless; but maybe they could have competition controlled for bone mass ratio or weight?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- cujo 7y ago
  Ok, I'll bite. Why is athletic competition unhealthy?
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    I maybe should've specified "at the top level". Your whole body breaks faster: joints, some organs, lungs. There's an amount of exercise that has a positive effect on people who eat more than they absolutely need to, but at some point you are not doing your body any favours. Note I'm not saying "being fat is okay" or "exercise is bad for you".
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    While general fitness is healthy, competing at the peak level (and sometimws far below the peak level, too) in very many (probably most) sports rewards optimizing short-term performance (which aspects vary by sport) over long term health.
nodejsblogger7 7y ago
Citation fucking needed.
nashequilibrium 7y ago
This is an oversimplification, in reality you looking for a certain ratio of weight, muscle mass, lactic acid buildup and other blood markers. This ratio can only be sustained for a short period of time, which is why you ramp up to competitions and peak during competition week. I dont see why experienced coaches would keep an athlete in this peak state since they know its not possible. In another sport, cyclist get so low in weight that they become very susceptible to illness but once again, it's only maintained for a very short period of time.
- thrower123 7y ago
  When you get to the very pinnacle of athletic performance, freak genetics plays an outsized role. Michael Phelps is one obvious example to point at, or Usain Bolt, but another is Eero Mantryranta[1], who had a natural gene variant that was equivalent in effect on red blood cell effectiveness to massive EPO doping. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eero_M%C3%A4ntyranta#Genetics_and_doping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eero_M%C3%A4ntyranta#Genetics_...
  - dspillett 7y ago
    This is one of the areas where the system is heavily weighted against some female athletes. Phelps has a genetic thing that means his blood is more efficient at carrying oxygen and he is called lucky and lauded for his (still impressive) efforts anyway. A woman who naturally produces more testosterone than the normal range is either not permitted to compete or has to be "drugged down" to do so.
    - ponsin 7y ago
      source? I don't recall any sports that limit the amount of testosterone women can have. By women I mean people with XX chromosomes.
      - dragonwriter 7y ago
        Track & field (governed the IAAF): https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/04/26/606039409/iaaf-sets-new-limits-on-testosterone-levels-in-women https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/04/26/606039409... And this has, in fact, affected actual (not merely theoretical) XX females: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/sports/caster-semenya-loses.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/sports/caster-semenya-los...
ip26 7y ago
Maybe this is part of why adventure races became popular. It's part of why I'm drawn to trail running, where big elevation changes & rough footing seem like they would favor a balanced physique.
EGreg 7y ago
If she was the fastest girl in America, though, how come she did better than those who were lighter? Maybe she had stronger legs, more explosive strength and twitch muscle reaction times. Who knows. The fastest male runner (Usain Bolt), the fastest swimmer (Michael Phelps) were all unique. Why make them do the same as all teammates? It just seemed that losing weight was unnecessary in her case — she was already the fastest!
- bilbo0s 7y ago
  >If she was the fastest girl in America, though, how come she did better than those who were lighter? NOP is well known for their athletes doping. This woman was basically as close to Salazar as an athlete gets, so I'm about 99.99% sure she was doping. Once PEDS get involved, all of the normal rules go out the window. So being lighter would not really give you any advantage over an athlete with a few pharmaceutical enhancements.
  - gamblor956 7y ago
    Stop spreading lies about her. Mary Cain was a teenager when she started running the NOP in 2012. Based on all available reporting, Salazar didn't begin trying to dope the NOP athletes until 2010 or 2011. Her performance at the NOP demonstrates emphatically that she didn't dope--she was much slower under NOP coaching than she was in high school.
    - HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
      Thank you, was wondering about this. I suppose it's possible that she was doping, though considering the circumstances, if I was an official, I might be a bit more lenient.
derefr 7y ago
> the lighter you are the faster you can run long distance Is there a running-related sport that doesn't care about who gets there first, but instead measures success like a gauntlet, where the last person to drop out of the race for just not being able to run anymore, wins? Not quite like a multi-day ultramarathon, where the running is segmented. I'm talking more about something that measures who can muster the longest single-segment run, with most people being expected and encouraged by their trainers to drop out once their muscles start to fail them, lest they incur permanent damage. I imagine light weight would serve no advantage in this kind of "race."
- madamelic 7y ago
  There is a gauntlet race somewhere in Appalachian US that only 20 or 30 have ever finished. It's a 30 hour race through the woods if I recall correctly. EDIT: I wasn't 100% correct, but this looks like what I was talking about: https://www.outsideonline.com/1924491/60-hours-hell-story-barkley-marathons https://www.outsideonline.com/1924491/60-hours-hell-story-ba... The actual count is 16 finishers and it is a 60 hour race so I am assuming it is done in legs.
  - scott_s 7y ago
    The Barkley Marathons. It's a 60 hour race of 5 laps through an unmarked course in a Tennessee state park: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barkley_Marathons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barkley_Marathons There is a good documentary about it called "The Barkley Marathons: The Race that Eats its Young" currently available on Amazon Prime streaming. There are also some smaller pieces on YouTube about some other years.
- steve_gh 7y ago
  Not all multi-day ultras are stage races. Have a look at the Tor des Geants (tordesgeants.it). Unlikely the Berkeley, you have a good chance of finishing. But it basically involves almost no sleep for a week. I did it a couple of years back and got 16 1/2 hrs sleep in 138 hrs. Bonkers but utterly brilliant...
- jacobevelyn 7y ago
code_sloth 7y ago
Professional sports today are the more result of artificial selection of people that have specialized bodies for their sport. Relevant TED talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COaMKbNrX0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COaMKbNrX0
threatofrain 7y ago
I would argue that a lot of sports, partly based on the structure of rules and partly inherent to the sport itself, are biased toward some kind of body type -- assuming we're talking about elite competition, which is the context of the article. And while some rules (such as those governing the size of a basketball or the height of a volleyball net) could be adjusted to include some groups, other groups will be likewise disadvantaged. I would also argue that notwithstanding your values, there are probably different optimums to achieve between the peak pro level and the community and youth level, but unfortunately people worship pros so much that at some point they would likely feel insulted if they had to continue with metaphorically shorter basketball hoops.

microcolonel 7y ago

Athletic competition is unhealthy regardless; but maybe they could have competition controlled for bone mass ratio or weight?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
cujo 7y ago
Ok, I'll bite. Why is athletic competition unhealthy?
- microcolonel 7y ago
  I maybe should've specified "at the top level". Your whole body breaks faster: joints, some organs, lungs. There's an amount of exercise that has a positive effect on people who eat more than they absolutely need to, but at some point you are not doing your body any favours. Note I'm not saying "being fat is okay" or "exercise is bad for you".
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  While general fitness is healthy, competing at the peak level (and sometimws far below the peak level, too) in very many (probably most) sports rewards optimizing short-term performance (which aspects vary by sport) over long term health.

nodejsblogger7 7y ago

Citation fucking needed.

nashequilibrium 7y ago

This is an oversimplification, in reality you looking for a certain ratio of weight, muscle mass, lactic acid buildup and other blood markers. This ratio can only be sustained for a short period of time, which is why you ramp up to competitions and peak during competition week. I dont see why experienced coaches would keep an athlete in this peak state since they know its not possible. In another sport, cyclist get so low in weight that they become very susceptible to illness but once again, it's only maintained for a very short period of time.

thrower123 7y ago
When you get to the very pinnacle of athletic performance, freak genetics plays an outsized role. Michael Phelps is one obvious example to point at, or Usain Bolt, but another is Eero Mantryranta[1], who had a natural gene variant that was equivalent in effect on red blood cell effectiveness to massive EPO doping. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eero_M%C3%A4ntyranta#Genetics_and_doping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eero_M%C3%A4ntyranta#Genetics_...
- dspillett 7y ago
  This is one of the areas where the system is heavily weighted against some female athletes. Phelps has a genetic thing that means his blood is more efficient at carrying oxygen and he is called lucky and lauded for his (still impressive) efforts anyway. A woman who naturally produces more testosterone than the normal range is either not permitted to compete or has to be "drugged down" to do so.
  - ponsin 7y ago
    source? I don't recall any sports that limit the amount of testosterone women can have. By women I mean people with XX chromosomes.
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      Track & field (governed the IAAF): https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/04/26/606039409/iaaf-sets-new-limits-on-testosterone-levels-in-women https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/04/26/606039409... And this has, in fact, affected actual (not merely theoretical) XX females: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/sports/caster-semenya-loses.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/sports/caster-semenya-los...

ip26 7y ago

Maybe this is part of why adventure races became popular. It's part of why I'm drawn to trail running, where big elevation changes & rough footing seem like they would favor a balanced physique.

EGreg 7y ago

If she was the fastest girl in America, though, how come she did better than those who were lighter? Maybe she had stronger legs, more explosive strength and twitch muscle reaction times. Who knows. The fastest male runner (Usain Bolt), the fastest swimmer (Michael Phelps) were all unique. Why make them do the same as all teammates? It just seemed that losing weight was unnecessary in her case — she was already the fastest!

bilbo0s 7y ago
>If she was the fastest girl in America, though, how come she did better than those who were lighter? NOP is well known for their athletes doping. This woman was basically as close to Salazar as an athlete gets, so I'm about 99.99% sure she was doping. Once PEDS get involved, all of the normal rules go out the window. So being lighter would not really give you any advantage over an athlete with a few pharmaceutical enhancements.
- gamblor956 7y ago
  Stop spreading lies about her. Mary Cain was a teenager when she started running the NOP in 2012. Based on all available reporting, Salazar didn't begin trying to dope the NOP athletes until 2010 or 2011. Her performance at the NOP demonstrates emphatically that she didn't dope--she was much slower under NOP coaching than she was in high school.
  - HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
    Thank you, was wondering about this. I suppose it's possible that she was doping, though considering the circumstances, if I was an official, I might be a bit more lenient.

derefr 7y ago

> the lighter you are the faster you can run long distance Is there a running-related sport that doesn't care about who gets there first, but instead measures success like a gauntlet, where the last person to drop out of the race for just not being able to run anymore, wins? Not quite like a multi-day ultramarathon, where the running is segmented. I'm talking more about something that measures who can muster the longest single-segment run, with most people being expected and encouraged by their trainers to drop out once their muscles start to fail them, lest they incur permanent damage. I imagine light weight would serve no advantage in this kind of "race."

madamelic 7y ago
There is a gauntlet race somewhere in Appalachian US that only 20 or 30 have ever finished. It's a 30 hour race through the woods if I recall correctly. EDIT: I wasn't 100% correct, but this looks like what I was talking about: https://www.outsideonline.com/1924491/60-hours-hell-story-barkley-marathons https://www.outsideonline.com/1924491/60-hours-hell-story-ba... The actual count is 16 finishers and it is a 60 hour race so I am assuming it is done in legs.
- scott_s 7y ago
  The Barkley Marathons. It's a 60 hour race of 5 laps through an unmarked course in a Tennessee state park: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barkley_Marathons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barkley_Marathons There is a good documentary about it called "The Barkley Marathons: The Race that Eats its Young" currently available on Amazon Prime streaming. There are also some smaller pieces on YouTube about some other years.
steve_gh 7y ago
Not all multi-day ultras are stage races. Have a look at the Tor des Geants (tordesgeants.it). Unlikely the Berkeley, you have a good chance of finishing. But it basically involves almost no sleep for a week. I did it a couple of years back and got 16 1/2 hrs sleep in 138 hrs. Bonkers but utterly brilliant...
jacobevelyn 7y ago

code_sloth 7y ago

Professional sports today are the more result of artificial selection of people that have specialized bodies for their sport. Relevant TED talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COaMKbNrX0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COaMKbNrX0

threatofrain 7y ago

I would argue that a lot of sports, partly based on the structure of rules and partly inherent to the sport itself, are biased toward some kind of body type -- assuming we're talking about elite competition, which is the context of the article. And while some rules (such as those governing the size of a basketball or the height of a volleyball net) could be adjusted to include some groups, other groups will be likewise disadvantaged. I would also argue that notwithstanding your values, there are probably different optimums to achieve between the peak pro level and the community and youth level, but unfortunately people worship pros so much that at some point they would likely feel insulted if they had to continue with metaphorically shorter basketball hoops.