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Do you really think that's what he should have said? Because that sounds like a vastly dumber thing to say, even if it's "honest". The "rogue operation" story

Do you really think that's what he should have said? Because that sounds like a vastly dumber thing to say, even if it's "honest". The "rogue operation" story is "good enough". It's plausible. That doesn't mean it's true of course. It doesn't have to be. Nobody has to actually believe it. It's just good enough so that everyone involved can save the minimum amount of face required to move on. The reason that the murder can be considered "a mistake" is that the fallout was far greater than estimated. Consider that the Saudis are killing political opponents all the time with very few issues. It's probably the grandeur of the plot that made the difference here. If Khashoggi had just been shot in the streets by "unknown assailants" (Putin style), it wouldn't have been that big a deal.

jacquesm 7y ago
> It's plausible. You've got to be kidding.
- whalebird 7y ago
  > You've got to be kidding. It is plausible in the sense of "plausible deniability". Imagine MBS saying something like "That Khashoggi guy, I wish somebody hacked him to pieces!". You can interpret that as an order, or you can interpret that as a more casual remark of frustration. If you're ordering a murder, you may well want that kind of ambiguity in the order. Furthermore, sometimes an unwise underling implements the perceived will of the dear leader in a way that is counter to their interest, e.g the assassination of Pompey "on behalf" of Julius Caesar.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    In a state like that it is about as plausible as a US general starting a war with Russia on their own. Anyway, I don't suspect we'll ever have a fair trial where these details will come out. Just more murders to cover up for the previous ones, possibly in the guise of executions by the judicial system or what goes for that in that country.
    - whalebird 7y ago
      I don't think the power dynamics are that clear. The Saudi state is not at all under total control of MBS. Formally, his father is in power, there are other potential heirs to the throne. There is the possibility of intrigue. In hindsight, it wouldn't make sense for MBS to order this killing, but it would make sense for a rival to blame the murder on him. That's hindsight of course. Equally plausible is the scenario where MBS is so self-absorbed, he orders the killing without regard to potential consequences.
      - jacquesm 7y ago
        An assassination team flew from one country to another, murdered a person in cold blood in an embassy and then exfiltrated the body in pieces. Such an operation does not get executed without orders from on high.

jacquesm 7y ago

> It's plausible. You've got to be kidding.

whalebird 7y ago
> You've got to be kidding. It is plausible in the sense of "plausible deniability". Imagine MBS saying something like "That Khashoggi guy, I wish somebody hacked him to pieces!". You can interpret that as an order, or you can interpret that as a more casual remark of frustration. If you're ordering a murder, you may well want that kind of ambiguity in the order. Furthermore, sometimes an unwise underling implements the perceived will of the dear leader in a way that is counter to their interest, e.g the assassination of Pompey "on behalf" of Julius Caesar.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  In a state like that it is about as plausible as a US general starting a war with Russia on their own. Anyway, I don't suspect we'll ever have a fair trial where these details will come out. Just more murders to cover up for the previous ones, possibly in the guise of executions by the judicial system or what goes for that in that country.
  - whalebird 7y ago
    I don't think the power dynamics are that clear. The Saudi state is not at all under total control of MBS. Formally, his father is in power, there are other potential heirs to the throne. There is the possibility of intrigue. In hindsight, it wouldn't make sense for MBS to order this killing, but it would make sense for a rival to blame the murder on him. That's hindsight of course. Equally plausible is the scenario where MBS is so self-absorbed, he orders the killing without regard to potential consequences.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      An assassination team flew from one country to another, murdered a person in cold blood in an embassy and then exfiltrated the body in pieces. Such an operation does not get executed without orders from on high.