5 ms·

The great thing about secrecy is that you never really know what's going on. Exactly who is in Guantanamo or the secret CIA prisons, and why? Do you honestly b

by paul 19y ago

The great thing about secrecy is that you never really know what's going on. Exactly who is in Guantanamo or the secret CIA prisons, and why? Do you honestly believe that prosecutions, FBI investigations, etc are never politically motivated?

gibsonf1 19y ago
I have 0 evidence of anyone jailed or killed for their political beliefs in this country. Do you have any?
- comatose_kid 19y ago
  Tell that to the people in this documentary (or their parents). Wonder if you'd still be saying that if it was your son in jail.... Take a look at: http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=310 http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=310 There's audio, and here's a direct link to the written transcript of the episode: http://www.thislife.org/extras/radio/310_transcript.pdf http://www.thislife.org/extras/radio/310_transcript.pdf An excerpt: "As best as we can tell, Badr Zaman Badr and his brother were imprisoned in Guantanamo for three years for telling a joke. Actually, for telling two jokes." I guess on second thought you are absolutely correct. These people weren't jailed in gitmo for their political beliefs after all - they just landed there because the US govt decided to listen to some random guy who was upset at being the target of their humor.
  - gibsonf1 19y ago
    Your examples are foreigners in a time of war. The interview asks them why they were detained without any other information from other sources on their case. I think most people you ask in prison will say they are innocent. In any case, this is not an example of a US citizen being put in jail etc for political reasons. Also, the main point here is that even if the US were prosecuting people for their politics, which they are not, it would not make what Google is doing any better. What Google is doing is directly aiding in the political prosecution of people in China, and nothing makes this right. I think I've said now more than enough, and so I withdraw from this thread.
    - comatose_kid 19y ago
      I wasn't discussing what the main point of this thread is. I was responding to the statement you made 'I have 0 evidence of anyone jailed or killed for their political beliefs in this country. Do you have any?' Withdraw if you like. I'm normally not one to get into political/ideological debates, but a statement like this deserves to be challenged. Yes, my examples are foreigners in a time of war. But, you said 'anyone', not US Citizens. But even if you ignore this (which I wouldn't really - a society should be judged by how it treats humans regardless of which country they happen to be a part of), you are still misguided. How about Martin Luther King being jailed for anti-segregation protests? Does that count to your re-framed question? I don't know if this could happen today (although the stage seems to be set with the wonderfully named Patriot Act which among other things has a section 215 which allows the FBI to search your library records), but the fact that it happened only a few decades ago should make you think twice before uttering blanket statements.
busy_beaver 19y ago
"Exactly who is in Guantanamo or the secret CIA prisons, and why?" Well, not you, and not anyone you know. The mere fact that you're comfortable posting this stuff on a public site, under your own name, demonstrates that you have ZERO fear that someone will break down your door tonight and take you off to a "secret prison". To be quite blunt: you don't even believe your own bullshit.
- pg 19y ago
  This is not reddit. Be polite.
  - busy_beaver 19y ago
    The gratuitous U.S. bashing in this thread looks exactly like something you'd see on Reddit (more likely, Digg). Not only is it ugly, it's utterly irrelevant to the nominal topic of discussion. Even if the U.S. were Nazi Germany, the Stalinist U.S.S.R., and the Pol Pot regime rolled into one, it would have zero relevance to the ethical position of Google with the Chinese government. I suppose I could have said that Paul B.'s position (and that of several others) is a classic example of the tu quoque variety of ad hominem fallacy, but that would basically just be using Latin to say the same thing.
    - busy_beaver 19y ago
      Ah, and I see my original post has been modded down to zero, in the classic Digg-style mob rule fashion. I'm outta here.
    - paul 19y ago
      My point is that no place is perfect and that different countries have different problems. It's not US bashing to suggest that we are not perfect, and that everything isn't black and white.

by paul 19y ago

gibsonf1 19y ago

I have 0 evidence of anyone jailed or killed for their political beliefs in this country. Do you have any?

comatose_kid 19y ago
Tell that to the people in this documentary (or their parents). Wonder if you'd still be saying that if it was your son in jail.... Take a look at: http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=310 http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=310 There's audio, and here's a direct link to the written transcript of the episode: http://www.thislife.org/extras/radio/310_transcript.pdf http://www.thislife.org/extras/radio/310_transcript.pdf An excerpt: "As best as we can tell, Badr Zaman Badr and his brother were imprisoned in Guantanamo for three years for telling a joke. Actually, for telling two jokes." I guess on second thought you are absolutely correct. These people weren't jailed in gitmo for their political beliefs after all - they just landed there because the US govt decided to listen to some random guy who was upset at being the target of their humor.
- gibsonf1 19y ago
  Your examples are foreigners in a time of war. The interview asks them why they were detained without any other information from other sources on their case. I think most people you ask in prison will say they are innocent. In any case, this is not an example of a US citizen being put in jail etc for political reasons. Also, the main point here is that even if the US were prosecuting people for their politics, which they are not, it would not make what Google is doing any better. What Google is doing is directly aiding in the political prosecution of people in China, and nothing makes this right. I think I've said now more than enough, and so I withdraw from this thread.
  - comatose_kid 19y ago
    I wasn't discussing what the main point of this thread is. I was responding to the statement you made 'I have 0 evidence of anyone jailed or killed for their political beliefs in this country. Do you have any?' Withdraw if you like. I'm normally not one to get into political/ideological debates, but a statement like this deserves to be challenged. Yes, my examples are foreigners in a time of war. But, you said 'anyone', not US Citizens. But even if you ignore this (which I wouldn't really - a society should be judged by how it treats humans regardless of which country they happen to be a part of), you are still misguided. How about Martin Luther King being jailed for anti-segregation protests? Does that count to your re-framed question? I don't know if this could happen today (although the stage seems to be set with the wonderfully named Patriot Act which among other things has a section 215 which allows the FBI to search your library records), but the fact that it happened only a few decades ago should make you think twice before uttering blanket statements.

busy_beaver 19y ago

"Exactly who is in Guantanamo or the secret CIA prisons, and why?" Well, not you, and not anyone you know. The mere fact that you're comfortable posting this stuff on a public site, under your own name, demonstrates that you have ZERO fear that someone will break down your door tonight and take you off to a "secret prison". To be quite blunt: you don't even believe your own bullshit.

pg 19y ago
This is not reddit. Be polite.
- busy_beaver 19y ago
  The gratuitous U.S. bashing in this thread looks exactly like something you'd see on Reddit (more likely, Digg). Not only is it ugly, it's utterly irrelevant to the nominal topic of discussion. Even if the U.S. were Nazi Germany, the Stalinist U.S.S.R., and the Pol Pot regime rolled into one, it would have zero relevance to the ethical position of Google with the Chinese government. I suppose I could have said that Paul B.'s position (and that of several others) is a classic example of the tu quoque variety of ad hominem fallacy, but that would basically just be using Latin to say the same thing.
  - busy_beaver 19y ago
    Ah, and I see my original post has been modded down to zero, in the classic Digg-style mob rule fashion. I'm outta here.
  - paul 19y ago
    My point is that no place is perfect and that different countries have different problems. It's not US bashing to suggest that we are not perfect, and that everything isn't black and white.