7 ms·

All well and good, but who is going to enforce these speed limits in international waters? Reading Ian Urbina's Outlaw Ocean[1] was an eye opener regarding wha

All well and good, but who is going to enforce these speed limits in international waters? Reading Ian Urbina's Outlaw Ocean[1] was an eye opener regarding what activities happen in effectively un-policed international waters. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/oct/02/the-outlaw-ocean-by-ian-urbina-review https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/oct/02/the-outlaw-oce...

nabla9 7y ago
Destination countries can enforce it.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  We noticed you sailed to us at 10 knots when the speed limit was 5, saving you ten hours. You will now be held waiting to unload for 10*2 hours.
  - beerandt 7y ago
    Only if it's convenient. Docking time slots are limited, fleeting, and expensive. If there's an open spot, and a ship ready to unload, it's going to get unloaded.
forkerenok 7y ago
Countries could have bilateral agreements on timing departure and arrival and from this calculating the average cruising speed (all other conditions taken into account, of course). Now, there are still ways to cheat that, but my gut feeling is that cheating would be more expensive than just following the agreement.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
Asooka 7y ago
You place a fine if the ship arrives too soon at the destination. There are still ways to cheat the system, e.g. make an undocumented stop, but compliance should be the easiest way. Of course it would also increase the cost of shipping as you either need more ships to reach the same tonnes of goods per year and/or pay the captains more since they are at sea for longer.
- phillc73 7y ago
  Enforcement at destination countries is far too simplistic to assume. There are too many countries who just won't care, for example Somalia, Haiti, many in S.E. Asia, and many others where a bribe will suffice. Then there are a lot of question marks regarding the jurisdiction of a destination country when the ship is flagged elsewhere. How or who enforces the penalty on this ship? And if such a penalty is applied, the ship owners simply change name and move to a different country's flag. This is exactly the same problem with illegal fishing. Perpetrators are getting away with it because effective policing is not happening.
  - adrianN 7y ago
    The countries that care about regulations are typically also those who import and export most stuff. Once you're in a port you're subject to the local laws, so imposing a fine should be no legal hassle.
  - VBprogrammer 7y ago
    I agree. For example, it would also allow ships to make up time lost to rough weather by ignoring the speed limits later in the passage (which is probably not good for the environment). I also don't know that a blanket speed limit makes sense for all ships. The longer the waterline length of a ship (for a given weight) the easier it is for it to make a given speed. I feel like a better metric could be used, like fining vessels for trips which consume more than X tonnes of fuel for a ton of cargo where X is designed to be met only by building highly efficient ships or by existing ships operating at reduced speed.
dustinmr 7y ago
In the US, you already have to report the cargo’s arrival date before it leaves its origin port. So the information is there. Graduate the port fees based on average speed for arrival.
- sillyquiet 7y ago
  It's hard to visualize, but a ship's engine speed is only one factor in its overall speed across an ocean, even with powerful engines, wind and especially current will improve or degrade a ship's overall speed as measured by satellite. So a naive port fee based on time of departure will not exactly work.
  - gwbas1c 7y ago
    I thought all ships have some kind of international tracking system now? You should be able to accurately estimate all ships's speeds, using basic high school physics, from a site like https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-12.0/centery:25.0/zoom:4 https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-12.0/cent...
    - andy_ppp 7y ago
      Speed != to fuel burned.
      - frosted-flakes 7y ago
        It's a roughly accurate measure though. If there's a storm that slows them down, it would be perfectly acceptable for them to burn more fuel to arrive in port on time.
        andy_ppp 7y ago
        I think you are wrong about this, there are so many variables and sea conditions can affect things, for example older engines and maintenance at sea. AIS data is also known to be wildly inaccurate. Source: built an engine performance model at a maritime company.
superqwert 7y ago
AIS devices are mandatory for all ships of 300tonnes+, meaning the data is open and can be monitored by anyone!
- phillc73 7y ago
  AIS can be turned off. This does raise red flags, but it doesn't seem to stop ships doing it, about 20 million times.[1][2] [1] https://www.wired.co.uk/article/ships-turn-off-tracking-systems-fishing-eu-investigate https://www.wired.co.uk/article/ships-turn-off-tracking-syst... [2] https://usa.oceana.org/publications/reports/avoiding-detection-global-case-studies-possible-ais-avoidance https://usa.oceana.org/publications/reports/avoiding-detecti...
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - beerandt 7y ago
    It's also trivial to spoof.
QuesnayJr 7y ago
The mean-value theorem?
vanderZwan 7y ago
According to the article, ships locations are tracked by satellite these days.
bluGill 7y ago
Nearly all ships are registered to a country. By registering with a country you agree that the laws of that country apply. Those laws can include anything they country wants - including speed limits enforced by whatever means. In return the Navy of that country (and applied Navies of other countries) will help defend you from pirates and other military action. There is such as thing as unregistered ships. They are called almost always pirates up to no good: most navys will sink them on sight. Most ports will not allow an unregistered ship.
- pintxo 7y ago
  Panama and Liberia together account for 1/3 [1] of global shipping (by gross tonnage). Together they have a blue water navy of 0 ships [2]. Even if these 2 countries would like to add relevant laws, they will not be able to enforce them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_merchant_navy_capacity_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_merchant_navy_capacity... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_level_of_military_equipment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_level_of_...
  - bluGill 7y ago
    Panama at least has close ties to the US. If they want to enforce laws they can call the US and get a large fleet to help. Panama also has the canal which is important to global shipping: if they want to they can refuse ships passage if they don't comply with whatever rules they want. Of course the IF above is big. I don't know how to get Panama to care.
  - tialaramex 7y ago
    The Paris MOU and Port State Inspection changed the status quo here forever. If an Open Registry (the technical name for a "Flag of Convenience") doesn't enforce rules the Port States (mostly economically important countries with a coastline) care about that flag essentially labels you as likely non-compliant - and whether you are or not it's a world of pain because those Port States care. So most of the famous Flags of Convenience cleaned their acts up. It just made too much financial sense. You can try mumbling about how Port State Control isn't fair, but the people who think it is have guns and money and you don't. In this case (and many previously) this works in our favour.
lmilcin 7y ago
These days almost every ship is or can be easily tracked. https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-12.0/centery:25.0/zoom:4 https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-12.0/cent... Also, it can be easily checked when the ship left/entered the port.
LargoLasskhyfv 7y ago
It is self enforcing. More speed needs more fuel which needs more money. New ships are already built with engines optimized for [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_steaming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_steaming Older ships are being modified. All engine manufacturers advertise those kits/modifications and their benefits.

nabla9 7y ago

Destination countries can enforce it.

tonyedgecombe 7y ago
We noticed you sailed to us at 10 knots when the speed limit was 5, saving you ten hours. You will now be held waiting to unload for 10*2 hours.
- beerandt 7y ago
  Only if it's convenient. Docking time slots are limited, fleeting, and expensive. If there's an open spot, and a ship ready to unload, it's going to get unloaded.

forkerenok 7y ago

Countries could have bilateral agreements on timing departure and arrival and from this calculating the average cruising speed (all other conditions taken into account, of course). Now, there are still ways to cheat that, but my gut feeling is that cheating would be more expensive than just following the agreement.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

Asooka 7y ago

You place a fine if the ship arrives too soon at the destination. There are still ways to cheat the system, e.g. make an undocumented stop, but compliance should be the easiest way. Of course it would also increase the cost of shipping as you either need more ships to reach the same tonnes of goods per year and/or pay the captains more since they are at sea for longer.

phillc73 7y ago
Enforcement at destination countries is far too simplistic to assume. There are too many countries who just won't care, for example Somalia, Haiti, many in S.E. Asia, and many others where a bribe will suffice. Then there are a lot of question marks regarding the jurisdiction of a destination country when the ship is flagged elsewhere. How or who enforces the penalty on this ship? And if such a penalty is applied, the ship owners simply change name and move to a different country's flag. This is exactly the same problem with illegal fishing. Perpetrators are getting away with it because effective policing is not happening.
- adrianN 7y ago
  The countries that care about regulations are typically also those who import and export most stuff. Once you're in a port you're subject to the local laws, so imposing a fine should be no legal hassle.
- VBprogrammer 7y ago
  I agree. For example, it would also allow ships to make up time lost to rough weather by ignoring the speed limits later in the passage (which is probably not good for the environment). I also don't know that a blanket speed limit makes sense for all ships. The longer the waterline length of a ship (for a given weight) the easier it is for it to make a given speed. I feel like a better metric could be used, like fining vessels for trips which consume more than X tonnes of fuel for a ton of cargo where X is designed to be met only by building highly efficient ships or by existing ships operating at reduced speed.

dustinmr 7y ago

In the US, you already have to report the cargo’s arrival date before it leaves its origin port. So the information is there. Graduate the port fees based on average speed for arrival.

sillyquiet 7y ago
It's hard to visualize, but a ship's engine speed is only one factor in its overall speed across an ocean, even with powerful engines, wind and especially current will improve or degrade a ship's overall speed as measured by satellite. So a naive port fee based on time of departure will not exactly work.
- gwbas1c 7y ago
  I thought all ships have some kind of international tracking system now? You should be able to accurately estimate all ships's speeds, using basic high school physics, from a site like https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-12.0/centery:25.0/zoom:4 https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-12.0/cent...
  - andy_ppp 7y ago
    Speed != to fuel burned.
    - frosted-flakes 7y ago
      It's a roughly accurate measure though. If there's a storm that slows them down, it would be perfectly acceptable for them to burn more fuel to arrive in port on time.
      - andy_ppp 7y ago
        I think you are wrong about this, there are so many variables and sea conditions can affect things, for example older engines and maintenance at sea. AIS data is also known to be wildly inaccurate. Source: built an engine performance model at a maritime company.

superqwert 7y ago

AIS devices are mandatory for all ships of 300tonnes+, meaning the data is open and can be monitored by anyone!

phillc73 7y ago
AIS can be turned off. This does raise red flags, but it doesn't seem to stop ships doing it, about 20 million times.[1][2] [1] https://www.wired.co.uk/article/ships-turn-off-tracking-systems-fishing-eu-investigate https://www.wired.co.uk/article/ships-turn-off-tracking-syst... [2] https://usa.oceana.org/publications/reports/avoiding-detection-global-case-studies-possible-ais-avoidance https://usa.oceana.org/publications/reports/avoiding-detecti...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- beerandt 7y ago
  It's also trivial to spoof.

QuesnayJr 7y ago

The mean-value theorem?

vanderZwan 7y ago

According to the article, ships locations are tracked by satellite these days.

bluGill 7y ago

Nearly all ships are registered to a country. By registering with a country you agree that the laws of that country apply. Those laws can include anything they country wants - including speed limits enforced by whatever means. In return the Navy of that country (and applied Navies of other countries) will help defend you from pirates and other military action. There is such as thing as unregistered ships. They are called almost always pirates up to no good: most navys will sink them on sight. Most ports will not allow an unregistered ship.

pintxo 7y ago
Panama and Liberia together account for 1/3 [1] of global shipping (by gross tonnage). Together they have a blue water navy of 0 ships [2]. Even if these 2 countries would like to add relevant laws, they will not be able to enforce them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_merchant_navy_capacity_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_merchant_navy_capacity... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_level_of_military_equipment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_level_of_...
- bluGill 7y ago
  Panama at least has close ties to the US. If they want to enforce laws they can call the US and get a large fleet to help. Panama also has the canal which is important to global shipping: if they want to they can refuse ships passage if they don't comply with whatever rules they want. Of course the IF above is big. I don't know how to get Panama to care.
- tialaramex 7y ago
  The Paris MOU and Port State Inspection changed the status quo here forever. If an Open Registry (the technical name for a "Flag of Convenience") doesn't enforce rules the Port States (mostly economically important countries with a coastline) care about that flag essentially labels you as likely non-compliant - and whether you are or not it's a world of pain because those Port States care. So most of the famous Flags of Convenience cleaned their acts up. It just made too much financial sense. You can try mumbling about how Port State Control isn't fair, but the people who think it is have guns and money and you don't. In this case (and many previously) this works in our favour.

lmilcin 7y ago

These days almost every ship is or can be easily tracked. https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-12.0/centery:25.0/zoom:4 https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-12.0/cent... Also, it can be easily checked when the ship left/entered the port.

LargoLasskhyfv 7y ago

It is self enforcing. More speed needs more fuel which needs more money. New ships are already built with engines optimized for [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_steaming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_steaming Older ships are being modified. All engine manufacturers advertise those kits/modifications and their benefits.