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Yes, they need water cooling. The marketing communication is amusing: "Optimized for water cooling": https://images.anandtech.com/doci/15062/AMD%20Fall%20Deskt

Yes, they need water cooling. The marketing communication is amusing: "Optimized for water cooling": https://images.anandtech.com/doci/15062/AMD%20Fall%20Desktop%20Announcement%20Briefing%20Deck-page-008_575px.jpg https://images.anandtech.com/doci/15062/AMD%20Fall%20Desktop... Threadrippers are at least HEDT; I think this TDP is not unusual. Paradoxically, AMD's marketing is likely more reliable when they specify that the i9-9920X wall power consumption is up to ~300W (https://images.anandtech.com/doci/15062/AMD%20Fall%20Desktop%20Announcement%20Briefing%20Deck-page-007_575px.jpg https://images.anandtech.com/doci/15062/AMD%20Fall%20Desktop...), rather than Intel's own spec (https://www.intel.com.au/content/www/au/en/products/processors/core/x-series/i9-9920x.html https://www.intel.com.au/content/www/au/en/products/processo...).

Someone1234 7y ago
> Yes, they need water cooling. That's inaccurate. Air cooling solutions are readily available for Threadripper. Water cooling systems simply move heat to a more convenient place to air cool it away (thus the radiators and fans at the destination). The only limiter on air cooling (and not water) is weight/size on the CPU socket (or amount of air moving over the fins of the heatsinks). Some examples of retail air coolers that can cool it out of the box already: https://www.amd.com/en/thermal-solutions-threadripper https://www.amd.com/en/thermal-solutions-threadripper https://noctua.at/en/amd_ryzen_threadripper_tdp_guidelines https://noctua.at/en/amd_ryzen_threadripper_tdp_guidelines https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/coolers/cpu-air-coolers/wraith-ripper/ https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/coolers/cpu-air-coolers... Now the hypothetical ceiling on water cooling is of undeniably higher. You could literally use a jet engine as a fan to cool the water, or send it through liquid nitrogen. But we aren't there yet with 280 Watts. At the current wattage air cooling remains viable, with some trade-offs (e.g. huge air coolers, requiring huge cases, plus strong in-case airflow). You definitely don't "need water cooling," yet. At least not for threadripper.
- Angostura 7y ago
  That's like saying that heat sinks 'don't make sense' Water cooling systems allow heat to be moved away from the chip's surface more efficiently than pointing at can at it can. Once moved away, a larger radiating surface can be air-coooled
- the8472 7y ago
  > That's inaccurate and doesn't actually make sense. You want a steep temperature gradient at the limited chip surface to maximize heat flux. Pumping a liquid with high heat capacity to it steepens the gradient where you need it. Cooling the liquid on the other hand can happen over a much larger surface area with shallower gradients and thus lower heat flux. Note that while the heat pipes in air coolers do use convection they do so passively, liquid cooling solutions are active.
  - Someone1234 7y ago
    You've not really added anything to the discussion here, but seem to be using verbose language in an attempt to convey expertise. For example this: > You want a steep temperature gradient at the limited chip surface to maximize heat flux. Is true with both and is really just a convoluted way of saying "if you don't convect heat fast enough, it won't work." Yeah, undeniably true... > Pumping a liquid with high heat capacity to it steepens the gradient where you need it. Where you need it is at the surface of the CPU package. Both solutions provide adequate heat capacities at that location, that's why they fundamentally work. One uses heat pipes and fins directly above with fans/air carrying the heat away, the other moves the heat, and does the same elsewhere. > Cooling the liquid on the other hand can happen over a much larger surface area with shallower gradients and thus lower heat flux. Note that while the heat pipes in air coolers do use convection they do so passively, liquid cooling solutions are active. This is a basic explanation of how water cooling works, it doesn't really add any specific insight into the problem scope.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - the8472 7y ago
      You updated your post since I have made my comment. I have no issues with the new version.
      - Someone1234 7y ago
        I did tone down the language immediately after posting it. But you also altered yours after posting it (the third paragraph was a later addition).
- zaarn 7y ago
  Threadripper has a lot more surface area to exchange heat, the Ryzen interface is about half the size of a threadripper, so you'd need to get some serious cooling going with that.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  Not sure about Gen 3 TR on air I think they say an AIO is recommended
- kingosticks 7y ago
  This is entirely correct. With the space you can make available in Desktop PC cases it's certainly possible to cool a 300W chip with a tall heatsink covered in heatpipes with a sensible fan. And the heatsinks used are still relatively cheap compared to what can be done if enough money is thrown at it. If you don't have enough space for a large enough heatsink, that's when you start needing far greater airflow than what's sensible in non-industrial environments (mostly in terms of noise). Just look at what some of these big Cisco boxes do. I'm disappointed AMD have chosen to confuse people with their marketing material. I guess these are expensive high-end CPUs aimed at the type of enthusiasts who see the idea of requiring water-cooling as a positive.
jotm 7y ago
"Recommended". So at least they're being honest, unlike Intel and their stated TDP. Laptop manufacturers have always used the cheapest possible cooling, but since Sandy Bridge, it has become painfully obvious the TDP is severely understated. Thermal throttling has become acceptable, and while it's impressive that Intel CPUs last years at ~90 degC, I'd rather they be honest with their actual requirements to get the full performance out of a given chip. Many laptops go over 90 degrees even at the guaranteed base speeds (no TurboBoost), in everyday use, not even multihour rendering or anything.

Someone1234 7y ago

> Yes, they need water cooling. That's inaccurate. Air cooling solutions are readily available for Threadripper. Water cooling systems simply move heat to a more convenient place to air cool it away (thus the radiators and fans at the destination). The only limiter on air cooling (and not water) is weight/size on the CPU socket (or amount of air moving over the fins of the heatsinks). Some examples of retail air coolers that can cool it out of the box already: https://www.amd.com/en/thermal-solutions-threadripper https://www.amd.com/en/thermal-solutions-threadripper https://noctua.at/en/amd_ryzen_threadripper_tdp_guidelines https://noctua.at/en/amd_ryzen_threadripper_tdp_guidelines https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/coolers/cpu-air-coolers/wraith-ripper/ https://www.coolermaster.com/catalog/coolers/cpu-air-coolers... Now the hypothetical ceiling on water cooling is of undeniably higher. You could literally use a jet engine as a fan to cool the water, or send it through liquid nitrogen. But we aren't there yet with 280 Watts. At the current wattage air cooling remains viable, with some trade-offs (e.g. huge air coolers, requiring huge cases, plus strong in-case airflow). You definitely don't "need water cooling," yet. At least not for threadripper.

Angostura 7y ago
That's like saying that heat sinks 'don't make sense' Water cooling systems allow heat to be moved away from the chip's surface more efficiently than pointing at can at it can. Once moved away, a larger radiating surface can be air-coooled
the8472 7y ago
> That's inaccurate and doesn't actually make sense. You want a steep temperature gradient at the limited chip surface to maximize heat flux. Pumping a liquid with high heat capacity to it steepens the gradient where you need it. Cooling the liquid on the other hand can happen over a much larger surface area with shallower gradients and thus lower heat flux. Note that while the heat pipes in air coolers do use convection they do so passively, liquid cooling solutions are active.
- Someone1234 7y ago
  You've not really added anything to the discussion here, but seem to be using verbose language in an attempt to convey expertise. For example this: > You want a steep temperature gradient at the limited chip surface to maximize heat flux. Is true with both and is really just a convoluted way of saying "if you don't convect heat fast enough, it won't work." Yeah, undeniably true... > Pumping a liquid with high heat capacity to it steepens the gradient where you need it. Where you need it is at the surface of the CPU package. Both solutions provide adequate heat capacities at that location, that's why they fundamentally work. One uses heat pipes and fins directly above with fans/air carrying the heat away, the other moves the heat, and does the same elsewhere. > Cooling the liquid on the other hand can happen over a much larger surface area with shallower gradients and thus lower heat flux. Note that while the heat pipes in air coolers do use convection they do so passively, liquid cooling solutions are active. This is a basic explanation of how water cooling works, it doesn't really add any specific insight into the problem scope.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - the8472 7y ago
    You updated your post since I have made my comment. I have no issues with the new version.
    - Someone1234 7y ago
      I did tone down the language immediately after posting it. But you also altered yours after posting it (the third paragraph was a later addition).
zaarn 7y ago
Threadripper has a lot more surface area to exchange heat, the Ryzen interface is about half the size of a threadripper, so you'd need to get some serious cooling going with that.
C1sc0cat 7y ago
Not sure about Gen 3 TR on air I think they say an AIO is recommended
kingosticks 7y ago
This is entirely correct. With the space you can make available in Desktop PC cases it's certainly possible to cool a 300W chip with a tall heatsink covered in heatpipes with a sensible fan. And the heatsinks used are still relatively cheap compared to what can be done if enough money is thrown at it. If you don't have enough space for a large enough heatsink, that's when you start needing far greater airflow than what's sensible in non-industrial environments (mostly in terms of noise). Just look at what some of these big Cisco boxes do. I'm disappointed AMD have chosen to confuse people with their marketing material. I guess these are expensive high-end CPUs aimed at the type of enthusiasts who see the idea of requiring water-cooling as a positive.

jotm 7y ago

"Recommended". So at least they're being honest, unlike Intel and their stated TDP. Laptop manufacturers have always used the cheapest possible cooling, but since Sandy Bridge, it has become painfully obvious the TDP is severely understated. Thermal throttling has become acceptable, and while it's impressive that Intel CPUs last years at ~90 degC, I'd rather they be honest with their actual requirements to get the full performance out of a given chip. Many laptops go over 90 degrees even at the guaranteed base speeds (no TurboBoost), in everyday use, not even multihour rendering or anything.