5 ms·

Having the opportunity to do _good_, rather than being compelled to do something by threat or violence, can be really productive

robbrown451 7y ago
You call a fine for late book return threat or violence? I dunno, but I'm going to stop paying rent if there is no penalty.
- EGreg 7y ago
  Rent for the poor is compulsory But taxes for the rich are often not. Greece has a proud tradition of this... https://aeon.co/ideas/voluntary-taxation-a-lesson-from-the-ancient-greeks https://aeon.co/ideas/voluntary-taxation-a-lesson-from-the-a... Also safety nets for poor are begrudged because they are funded by Government taxes but safety nets for the rich are welcomed because they are funded by banks, and money of depositors and investors, since individuals who bail you out can (expected value) personally do better inside the bank than individuals who foreclose and help the bank (eg Trump’s bailouts after Taj Mahal etc.)
  - robbrown451 7y ago
    I'm having a bit of trouble determining if that was a reply to my comment. My only point was that if things are optional to pay for, lots of people will take the thing, and not pay. That's why the grocery store hires cashiers, rather than being on the honor system.
    - BoorishBears 7y ago
      That's not why cashiers are there. The cashier is there for when you decide to pay for your goods. If you try and walk out with them, the cashier will not stop you. For legal reasons, even the security probably won't touch you. The reason most people who don't steal isn't the punishment, it's because they don't want to steal. Likewise, removing the fine doesn't make a late book not late. People do not have some inherent want to break social conventions like stealing or overstaying your lease on something.
      - robbrown451 7y ago
        I imagine you don't live in the city. More and more of the merchandise at Safeway is behind lock and key (shampoo, toothbrushes, etc), and incidents with security detaining someone (who is often making a very loud scene) are not at all uncommon. Regardless, I don't agree with your theory. It might work for a while, but as soon as people see other people getting things for free, and the prices they pay go up to compensate, they tend to decide not to be the suckers anymore. I mean, look how quickly looting can start. Look at all the people willing to exploit loopholes in the system to cheat people out of money. Look at corruption in countries where it isn't effectively policed against. Look at how crime is celebrated in a significant amount of American culture (especially music). And especially, look at how hard it is to make a buck by offering your software or music or what-have-you as "donation ware." The reason people don't want to steal is that they have been in environments where, if they are dishonest, people eventually are onto them and don't trust them and otherwise "punish" them, even if just by social pressure and shaming and such. If they are in environments where this isn't the case, especially if they have been in such environments for a long time, they adapt to those environments. Do you really think a grocery store would stay in business long if there was absolutely no tangible downside to just walking out without paying?
        BoorishBears 7y ago
        I live in a city. You're describing a vast minority of stores in the US, I don't know who you're trying to fool... Sure you can go to a some neighborhoods and find stuff under lock and key and aggressive security, but the vast majorities of stores do not rely on that (in other words, the system as a whole does not rely on that, even if there are special cases for specific stores) You're waxing poetic about rioting and people driven to extreme enough poverty they feel the need to steal Tide to sell for drugs... yeah it turns out disenfranchised people in extreme situations will not respect societal norms, not some deep insight. We're talking about library books. You're straying into the most extreme ends of society to try and what exactly? Feel free to identify as someone who only doesn't steal books late fees, I assure you you'll be in the minority. >Look at how crime is celebrated in a significant amount of American culture (especially music). Also, what kind of non-sequitur is this?!
- BoorishBears 7y ago
  For most people there is no penalty besides after a long period of time of and money spent by your landlord, eventually you'll get forcibly evicted, and they might even pay you to do leave before then. People squat on apartments all the time. Some people go from home to home never paying rent, and never see a real punishment for it. But it's unethical, and against social norms. Just like keeping books forever (stealing) just because there's no late fee.
EGreg 7y ago
Reminds me of this too: http://freakonomics.com/2013/10/23/what-makes-people-do-what-they-do/ http://freakonomics.com/2013/10/23/what-makes-people-do-what...

robbrown451 7y ago

You call a fine for late book return threat or violence? I dunno, but I'm going to stop paying rent if there is no penalty.

EGreg 7y ago
Rent for the poor is compulsory But taxes for the rich are often not. Greece has a proud tradition of this... https://aeon.co/ideas/voluntary-taxation-a-lesson-from-the-ancient-greeks https://aeon.co/ideas/voluntary-taxation-a-lesson-from-the-a... Also safety nets for poor are begrudged because they are funded by Government taxes but safety nets for the rich are welcomed because they are funded by banks, and money of depositors and investors, since individuals who bail you out can (expected value) personally do better inside the bank than individuals who foreclose and help the bank (eg Trump’s bailouts after Taj Mahal etc.)
- robbrown451 7y ago
  I'm having a bit of trouble determining if that was a reply to my comment. My only point was that if things are optional to pay for, lots of people will take the thing, and not pay. That's why the grocery store hires cashiers, rather than being on the honor system.
  - BoorishBears 7y ago
    That's not why cashiers are there. The cashier is there for when you decide to pay for your goods. If you try and walk out with them, the cashier will not stop you. For legal reasons, even the security probably won't touch you. The reason most people who don't steal isn't the punishment, it's because they don't want to steal. Likewise, removing the fine doesn't make a late book not late. People do not have some inherent want to break social conventions like stealing or overstaying your lease on something.
    - robbrown451 7y ago
      I imagine you don't live in the city. More and more of the merchandise at Safeway is behind lock and key (shampoo, toothbrushes, etc), and incidents with security detaining someone (who is often making a very loud scene) are not at all uncommon. Regardless, I don't agree with your theory. It might work for a while, but as soon as people see other people getting things for free, and the prices they pay go up to compensate, they tend to decide not to be the suckers anymore. I mean, look how quickly looting can start. Look at all the people willing to exploit loopholes in the system to cheat people out of money. Look at corruption in countries where it isn't effectively policed against. Look at how crime is celebrated in a significant amount of American culture (especially music). And especially, look at how hard it is to make a buck by offering your software or music or what-have-you as "donation ware." The reason people don't want to steal is that they have been in environments where, if they are dishonest, people eventually are onto them and don't trust them and otherwise "punish" them, even if just by social pressure and shaming and such. If they are in environments where this isn't the case, especially if they have been in such environments for a long time, they adapt to those environments. Do you really think a grocery store would stay in business long if there was absolutely no tangible downside to just walking out without paying?
      - BoorishBears 7y ago
        I live in a city. You're describing a vast minority of stores in the US, I don't know who you're trying to fool... Sure you can go to a some neighborhoods and find stuff under lock and key and aggressive security, but the vast majorities of stores do not rely on that (in other words, the system as a whole does not rely on that, even if there are special cases for specific stores) You're waxing poetic about rioting and people driven to extreme enough poverty they feel the need to steal Tide to sell for drugs... yeah it turns out disenfranchised people in extreme situations will not respect societal norms, not some deep insight. We're talking about library books. You're straying into the most extreme ends of society to try and what exactly? Feel free to identify as someone who only doesn't steal books late fees, I assure you you'll be in the minority. >Look at how crime is celebrated in a significant amount of American culture (especially music). Also, what kind of non-sequitur is this?!
BoorishBears 7y ago
For most people there is no penalty besides after a long period of time of and money spent by your landlord, eventually you'll get forcibly evicted, and they might even pay you to do leave before then. People squat on apartments all the time. Some people go from home to home never paying rent, and never see a real punishment for it. But it's unethical, and against social norms. Just like keeping books forever (stealing) just because there's no late fee.

EGreg 7y ago

Reminds me of this too: http://freakonomics.com/2013/10/23/what-makes-people-do-what-they-do/ http://freakonomics.com/2013/10/23/what-makes-people-do-what...