6 ms·

Cops actually buy most of their equipment on the open market, replacing and upgrading it as needed. Think about it: we don't have special, government-only cloth

Cops actually buy most of their equipment on the open market, replacing and upgrading it as needed. Think about it: we don't have special, government-only clothing, boot or weapons factories in the US anymore. If we did, we'd have the same planned economy shortages and overruns that any other such system does. Cops are also allowed to keep guns after they retire. It's important to remember that guns are issued to police for self-defence, since the work they undertake puts them in harm's way. That doesn't change after they retire.

some_random 7y ago
Oh come on, they really aren't in harms way after retiring with maybe a handful of exceptions. There's no reason they should be allowed to CC in all 50 states. Especially since literally no one else has that right.
- solidsnack9000 7y ago
  Oh come on, they really are. Think about it: they typically retire in the area where they've been a cop. Criminals know who they are and where they live, and have for years -- and criminals never retire. Cops should definitely be allowed to carry concealed in all 50 states. That no one else has that right maybe tells us we should expand CCW reciprocity. It's already something like 35 states.
  - learc83 7y ago
    >Criminals know who they are and where they live, and have for years I'd need to see some stats on how often retited police officers are retaliated against by criminals before I'll buy that this is anywhere near likely enough to worry about.
    - mandelbrotwurst 7y ago
      Even if the answer is zero that doesn't prove what you're hoping it would because as has been discussed, in reality those retired cops still have their weapons and criminals are aware of that.
      - ryanlol 7y ago
        Elsewhere in the world retired cops do not have weapons.
        solidsnack9000 7y ago
        Everywhere else in the world? How do you know that?
        ryanlol 7y ago
        Are you trying to discredit gun rights advocates?
        solidsnack9000 7y ago
        What countries are you referring to in your reply? Pretty tough to fact check “elsewhere”.
      - learc83 7y ago
        So the hypothesis is that criminals want to kill retired cops, but they don't because they know the cops still have guns? I'm not buying that. If someone really wants to kill you, and they know where you live, a gun in your house or in holster isn't going to stop them. You can't be constantly on alert.
        Alupis 7y ago
        What's the problem, really? How many retired law enforcement officers go on binge shooting sprees? Or should we oppose them having a legally purchased firearm just because?
        dsfyu404ed 7y ago
        >What's the problem, really? The double standard!
- snagglegaggle 7y ago
  Point: everyone does have that right, it is just unconstitutionally abridged.
jeffdavis 7y ago
You are generalizing, but that general reasoning doesn't make any sense when applied to specific people and laws. First of all, why are they not bound by the same magazine capacity limits? If more than 10 rounds are needed for self defense, shouldn't everyone in the state have that tool at their disposal (per Heller)? Similar question about buying a newer model of pistol. Why would the 2019 model be crucial to keep a retired cop from getting gunned down, but forbidden to others? There isn't even a major functional difference between a 2013 glock and a 2019 glock. And generalizations about how retired police somehow need their special guns and nobody else does are just not compatible with the notion of individual rights. I bet a lot of abused women are in much greater danger than an average retired cop. Who decides who the special groups are that get special privileges? Fundamentally, a police officer is a citizen. It happens that their job is dangerous, and I respect and admire their courage. But it's also a position of power, and we need to keep that under some control so that we maintain trust. Arbitrary privileges erode that trust.
- Alupis 7y ago
  Perhaps you've stumbled unwittingly into the real reason behind current gun control measures in California and some other states. It's not about keeping people safer, nor about making it easier to track criminals... It would be less offensive to just be transparent about these regulations. It's about making it more difficult for anyone to legally purchase or maintain a firearm.
- solidsnack9000 7y ago
  The shoe is on the other foot -- we really need to justify the restrictions. Why is it a good idea for cops not to have those guns? The argument you make about Gen 3 vs Gen 5 Glocks actually suggests there is no reason to restrict the general public from buying them, either. The Gen 5 has duplicate controls for left-handed shooting and is thus safer for some people. All the points you are making are basically why the laws are dumb -- 10 round magazines are not significantly safer for the public than 17 round magazines, for example -- and no one likes to be subject to useless restrictions. Least of all cops.
mschuster91 7y ago
> we don't have special, government-only clothing, boot or weapons factories in the US anymore. If we did, we'd have the same planned economy shortages and overruns that any other such system does. But now, Western governments have to endure usurious prices or massive budget/time overruns for basic supplies (e.g. Germany has a problem with shoes for soldiers), quality issues (in Germany, G36 rifle, police uniforms in Bavaria and IIRC there were also issues with protection vests). Planned economy Soviet-style didn't fail because of being what it was, it failed because of a lack of data gathering and processing (demand modeling), as well as the procedural inflexibility to react to short term changes.
- solidsnack9000 7y ago
  Those problems often exist because of single sourcing, and the arsenal system was often much worse. Protection vests, helmets and other stuff that meet military standards are actually quite affordable in the US and there are multiple vendors for all of them. A good search to run online to see what the system looks like is “AR 670 boots”.

some_random 7y ago

Oh come on, they really aren't in harms way after retiring with maybe a handful of exceptions. There's no reason they should be allowed to CC in all 50 states. Especially since literally no one else has that right.

solidsnack9000 7y ago
Oh come on, they really are. Think about it: they typically retire in the area where they've been a cop. Criminals know who they are and where they live, and have for years -- and criminals never retire. Cops should definitely be allowed to carry concealed in all 50 states. That no one else has that right maybe tells us we should expand CCW reciprocity. It's already something like 35 states.
- learc83 7y ago
  >Criminals know who they are and where they live, and have for years I'd need to see some stats on how often retited police officers are retaliated against by criminals before I'll buy that this is anywhere near likely enough to worry about.
  - mandelbrotwurst 7y ago
    Even if the answer is zero that doesn't prove what you're hoping it would because as has been discussed, in reality those retired cops still have their weapons and criminals are aware of that.
    - ryanlol 7y ago
      Elsewhere in the world retired cops do not have weapons.
      - solidsnack9000 7y ago
        Everywhere else in the world? How do you know that?
        ryanlol 7y ago
        Are you trying to discredit gun rights advocates?
        solidsnack9000 7y ago
        What countries are you referring to in your reply? Pretty tough to fact check “elsewhere”.
    - learc83 7y ago
      So the hypothesis is that criminals want to kill retired cops, but they don't because they know the cops still have guns? I'm not buying that. If someone really wants to kill you, and they know where you live, a gun in your house or in holster isn't going to stop them. You can't be constantly on alert.
      - Alupis 7y ago
        What's the problem, really? How many retired law enforcement officers go on binge shooting sprees? Or should we oppose them having a legally purchased firearm just because?
        dsfyu404ed 7y ago
        >What's the problem, really? The double standard!
snagglegaggle 7y ago
Point: everyone does have that right, it is just unconstitutionally abridged.

jeffdavis 7y ago

You are generalizing, but that general reasoning doesn't make any sense when applied to specific people and laws. First of all, why are they not bound by the same magazine capacity limits? If more than 10 rounds are needed for self defense, shouldn't everyone in the state have that tool at their disposal (per Heller)? Similar question about buying a newer model of pistol. Why would the 2019 model be crucial to keep a retired cop from getting gunned down, but forbidden to others? There isn't even a major functional difference between a 2013 glock and a 2019 glock. And generalizations about how retired police somehow need their special guns and nobody else does are just not compatible with the notion of individual rights. I bet a lot of abused women are in much greater danger than an average retired cop. Who decides who the special groups are that get special privileges? Fundamentally, a police officer is a citizen. It happens that their job is dangerous, and I respect and admire their courage. But it's also a position of power, and we need to keep that under some control so that we maintain trust. Arbitrary privileges erode that trust.

Alupis 7y ago
Perhaps you've stumbled unwittingly into the real reason behind current gun control measures in California and some other states. It's not about keeping people safer, nor about making it easier to track criminals... It would be less offensive to just be transparent about these regulations. It's about making it more difficult for anyone to legally purchase or maintain a firearm.
solidsnack9000 7y ago
The shoe is on the other foot -- we really need to justify the restrictions. Why is it a good idea for cops not to have those guns? The argument you make about Gen 3 vs Gen 5 Glocks actually suggests there is no reason to restrict the general public from buying them, either. The Gen 5 has duplicate controls for left-handed shooting and is thus safer for some people. All the points you are making are basically why the laws are dumb -- 10 round magazines are not significantly safer for the public than 17 round magazines, for example -- and no one likes to be subject to useless restrictions. Least of all cops.

mschuster91 7y ago

> we don't have special, government-only clothing, boot or weapons factories in the US anymore. If we did, we'd have the same planned economy shortages and overruns that any other such system does. But now, Western governments have to endure usurious prices or massive budget/time overruns for basic supplies (e.g. Germany has a problem with shoes for soldiers), quality issues (in Germany, G36 rifle, police uniforms in Bavaria and IIRC there were also issues with protection vests). Planned economy Soviet-style didn't fail because of being what it was, it failed because of a lack of data gathering and processing (demand modeling), as well as the procedural inflexibility to react to short term changes.

solidsnack9000 7y ago
Those problems often exist because of single sourcing, and the arsenal system was often much worse. Protection vests, helmets and other stuff that meet military standards are actually quite affordable in the US and there are multiple vendors for all of them. A good search to run online to see what the system looks like is “AR 670 boots”.