8 ms·

To get an idea, start by giving your laptop a name ascribing intent and fate to it, and seeing people as a product of your laptop, rather than the other way aro

To get an idea, start by giving your laptop a name ascribing intent and fate to it, and seeing people as a product of your laptop, rather than the other way around.

shantly 7y ago
You can’t get far working in matters of human society if you go around dismissing things for being “artificial”.
- PavlovsCat 7y ago
  I don't "go around dismissing things as artificial", you're just playing word games. It's obvious from context how they meant it, "artificial" is just not a good way to say it. Anyone who truly rejects "all artificial" things won't write on the internet, or even speak in polite society, seeing how they would be butt naked. So that can't possibly be the meaning. Just like you don't literally mean "going far", which has nothing to do with distance travelled.
  - shantly 7y ago
    Dismissing things because they're "artificial", as if that proves anything, is super common in these sort of discussions. Especially online, especially among tech folks. > Nationalism isn't normal OK. I'm listening. > , countries are a completely artificial construct. So. What. "Grass is not red," OK, I'm with you, I'm very open to what you're writing, even. "Red is an artificial construct," nice non-sequitur and it's not that it isn't true, but so what?
    - PavlovsCat 7y ago
      Well, I wouldn't have put it that way, and I'm not that poster, so it's useless to get stuck to that word. Personally I don't mind the artificiality of countries, but the insanity of the identities some people (artificially) construct around being randomly born somewhere (especially since people who contributed fuck all to wherever they live seem perfectly fine of being rabid nationalists) Just like it's not a problem that your laptop is artificial, but if you start to pretend it's giving you commands, or if you just do what you want, but claim it's for the good of your laptop, then the problems begin. I wasn't just saying that to be snarky, you know, I was actually making a point. Because it's artificial, created by humans, and you are a human. I just don't know how to make it clearer than that.
      - mistermann 7y ago
        > the insanity of the identities some people (artificially) construct around being randomly born somewhere I may have been randomly born somewhere, but I am grateful to my ancestors and countrymen for their self-sacrifice (sometimes giving up their lives), for the blood sweat and tears they put into building the nation to be a better place for the next generation. Calling this a form of insanity seems like insanity itself. > especially since people who contributed fuck all to wherever they live seem perfectly fine of being rabid nationalists I obey the law and contribute substantial income taxes to my national government that they distribute to others in ways that I don't agree with. I am likely a "rabid nationalist" as you put it, and I am proud to be this way, I believe it is righteous and beneficial. > but if you start to pretend it's giving you commands, or if you just do what you want, but claim it's for the good of your laptop, then the problems begin My country gives me commands and I obey them, because it is mostly for the good of my country and fellow countrymen.
        jacquesm 7y ago
        In moderation that's all fine and good. But when taken to excess, like anything else taken to excess, it can do a lot of harm.
        PavlovsCat 7y ago
        > I am grateful to my ancestors and countrymen for their self-sacrifice I say "constructed identity", you say "I am grateful". If you twist my words to call them insane, that in itself says a lot about the security of your beliefs. I have that gratitude, too, and I'm grateful to even more people who aren't my ancestors or countrymen. So why make that distinction? It's like saying "I'm grateful to the people with blue t-shirts who showed me kindness in life".
        mistermann 7y ago
        > I say "constructed identity", you say "I am grateful". I'm not seeing your point. If it's that my gratefulness is "constructed", well, guilty as charged I guess. Love and most any other emotion people feel is "constructed". > If you twist my words to call them insane, that in itself says a lot about the security of your beliefs. You're the one who started with the insult, I simply returned the favor while pointing out the logical flaws in your reasoning for the insult. > I have that gratitude, too, and I'm grateful to even more people who aren't my ancestors or countrymen. So why make that distinction? That they're different seems sufficient reason. > It's like saying "I'm grateful to the people with blue t-shirts who showed me kindness in life". It might be, if people in blue t-shirts actually had showed me noteworthy kindness in life. But they haven't, so therefore it actually isn't like that, at least according to my logic.
jacquesm 7y ago
And salute it in the morning, sing songs to it and act all upset when other people don't care as much about your laptop as you do. Then think of dying defending your laptop, and expecting others to die defending your laptop as well.
- shantly 7y ago
  Oh or we could expect people to accept the laptop in payment for debts that far exceed its intrinsic material value. Oh right, that’s money, it’s also “artificial”, and that’s also a fairly useless observation per se. It’s a gibberish argument unless there’s a lot more to it. It’s artificial. So what?
- PavlovsCat 7y ago
  > Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one's country which is not part of one's love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship. -- Erich Fromm I would say the person who loves just one nation over all others loves no nation. They may think they do, and they may claim it as they destroy it, but they're incapable of it. Furthermore, I think the mass societies that came into existence in the 20th century, and the rootlessness they produce, also created a form of hypernationalism which is more self-destructive hysteria than even selfish chauvinism.
  - mistermann 7y ago
    > I would say the person who loves just one nation over all others loves no nation. You can say that, but is it true? > They may think they do, and they may claim it as they destroy it, but they're incapable of it. This sounds like you're saying that it's not possible for a Chinese or Japanese person to love their own country more than they love other countries. If so, do you have any evidence that supports this belief?
    - PavlovsCat 7y ago
      > This sounds like you're saying that it's not possible for a Chinese or Japanese person to love their own country more than they love other countries. If so, do you have any evidence that supports this belief? Do you have evidence to the contrary? Why is the burden to disprove a "love" that has never been proven on me, how would the evidence you're asking for even look like?

To get an idea, start by giving your laptop a name ascribing intent and fate to it, and seeing people as a product of your laptop, rather than the other way around.

shantly 7y ago

You can’t get far working in matters of human society if you go around dismissing things for being “artificial”.

PavlovsCat 7y ago
I don't "go around dismissing things as artificial", you're just playing word games. It's obvious from context how they meant it, "artificial" is just not a good way to say it. Anyone who truly rejects "all artificial" things won't write on the internet, or even speak in polite society, seeing how they would be butt naked. So that can't possibly be the meaning. Just like you don't literally mean "going far", which has nothing to do with distance travelled.
- shantly 7y ago
  Dismissing things because they're "artificial", as if that proves anything, is super common in these sort of discussions. Especially online, especially among tech folks. > Nationalism isn't normal OK. I'm listening. > , countries are a completely artificial construct. So. What. "Grass is not red," OK, I'm with you, I'm very open to what you're writing, even. "Red is an artificial construct," nice non-sequitur and it's not that it isn't true, but so what?
  - PavlovsCat 7y ago
    Well, I wouldn't have put it that way, and I'm not that poster, so it's useless to get stuck to that word. Personally I don't mind the artificiality of countries, but the insanity of the identities some people (artificially) construct around being randomly born somewhere (especially since people who contributed fuck all to wherever they live seem perfectly fine of being rabid nationalists) Just like it's not a problem that your laptop is artificial, but if you start to pretend it's giving you commands, or if you just do what you want, but claim it's for the good of your laptop, then the problems begin. I wasn't just saying that to be snarky, you know, I was actually making a point. Because it's artificial, created by humans, and you are a human. I just don't know how to make it clearer than that.
    - mistermann 7y ago
      > the insanity of the identities some people (artificially) construct around being randomly born somewhere I may have been randomly born somewhere, but I am grateful to my ancestors and countrymen for their self-sacrifice (sometimes giving up their lives), for the blood sweat and tears they put into building the nation to be a better place for the next generation. Calling this a form of insanity seems like insanity itself. > especially since people who contributed fuck all to wherever they live seem perfectly fine of being rabid nationalists I obey the law and contribute substantial income taxes to my national government that they distribute to others in ways that I don't agree with. I am likely a "rabid nationalist" as you put it, and I am proud to be this way, I believe it is righteous and beneficial. > but if you start to pretend it's giving you commands, or if you just do what you want, but claim it's for the good of your laptop, then the problems begin My country gives me commands and I obey them, because it is mostly for the good of my country and fellow countrymen.
      - jacquesm 7y ago
        In moderation that's all fine and good. But when taken to excess, like anything else taken to excess, it can do a lot of harm.
      - PavlovsCat 7y ago
        > I am grateful to my ancestors and countrymen for their self-sacrifice I say "constructed identity", you say "I am grateful". If you twist my words to call them insane, that in itself says a lot about the security of your beliefs. I have that gratitude, too, and I'm grateful to even more people who aren't my ancestors or countrymen. So why make that distinction? It's like saying "I'm grateful to the people with blue t-shirts who showed me kindness in life".
        mistermann 7y ago
        > I say "constructed identity", you say "I am grateful". I'm not seeing your point. If it's that my gratefulness is "constructed", well, guilty as charged I guess. Love and most any other emotion people feel is "constructed". > If you twist my words to call them insane, that in itself says a lot about the security of your beliefs. You're the one who started with the insult, I simply returned the favor while pointing out the logical flaws in your reasoning for the insult. > I have that gratitude, too, and I'm grateful to even more people who aren't my ancestors or countrymen. So why make that distinction? That they're different seems sufficient reason. > It's like saying "I'm grateful to the people with blue t-shirts who showed me kindness in life". It might be, if people in blue t-shirts actually had showed me noteworthy kindness in life. But they haven't, so therefore it actually isn't like that, at least according to my logic.

jacquesm 7y ago

And salute it in the morning, sing songs to it and act all upset when other people don't care as much about your laptop as you do. Then think of dying defending your laptop, and expecting others to die defending your laptop as well.

shantly 7y ago
Oh or we could expect people to accept the laptop in payment for debts that far exceed its intrinsic material value. Oh right, that’s money, it’s also “artificial”, and that’s also a fairly useless observation per se. It’s a gibberish argument unless there’s a lot more to it. It’s artificial. So what?
PavlovsCat 7y ago
> Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one's country which is not part of one's love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship. -- Erich Fromm I would say the person who loves just one nation over all others loves no nation. They may think they do, and they may claim it as they destroy it, but they're incapable of it. Furthermore, I think the mass societies that came into existence in the 20th century, and the rootlessness they produce, also created a form of hypernationalism which is more self-destructive hysteria than even selfish chauvinism.
- mistermann 7y ago
  > I would say the person who loves just one nation over all others loves no nation. You can say that, but is it true? > They may think they do, and they may claim it as they destroy it, but they're incapable of it. This sounds like you're saying that it's not possible for a Chinese or Japanese person to love their own country more than they love other countries. If so, do you have any evidence that supports this belief?
  - PavlovsCat 7y ago
    > This sounds like you're saying that it's not possible for a Chinese or Japanese person to love their own country more than they love other countries. If so, do you have any evidence that supports this belief? Do you have evidence to the contrary? Why is the burden to disprove a "love" that has never been proven on me, how would the evidence you're asking for even look like?