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as did i; my favorite on the subject is this one: https://www.gwern.net/The-Melancholy-of-Subculture-Society https://www.gwern.net/The-Melancholy-of-Subculture-

as did i; my favorite on the subject is this one: https://www.gwern.net/The-Melancholy-of-Subculture-Society https://www.gwern.net/The-Melancholy-of-Subculture-Society > As ever more opt out, the larger culture is damaged.7 The culture begins to fragment back into pieces. The disconnect can be profound; an American anime geek has more in common with a Japanese anime geek (who is of a different ethnicity, a different culture, a different religion, a different language…) than he does with an American involved in the evangelical Christian subculture. There is essentially no common ground—our 2 countrymen probably can’t even agree on objective matters like governance or evolution! > With enough of these gaps, where is ‘American’ or ‘French’ culture? Such cultural identities take centuries to coalesce—France did not speak French until the 1900s (as The Discovery of France recounts), and Han China is still digesting & assimilating its many minorities & outlying regions. America, of course, had it easy in starting with a small founder population which could just exterminate the natives. > The national identity fragments under the assault of burgeoning subcultures. At last, the critic beholds the natural endpoint of this process: the nation is some lines on a map, some laws you follow. No one particularly cares about it. The geek thinks, ‘Meh: here, Canada, London, Japan, Singapore—as long as FedEx can reach me and there’s a good Internet connection, what’s the difference?’ (Nor are the technically-inclined alone in this.8)

opportune 7y ago
Subculture is not the same as opting out, though. Nor is there a dichotomy of being either a member of a subculture vs society at large. There are American otaku geeks who are nationalistic christians. I mean, that is a lot of what 4chan is these days. >You can test this yourself. Tell yourself —‘The country I live in now is the best country in the world for people like me; I would be terribly unhappy if I was exiled.’ If your mental reply goes something like, ‘Why, what’s so special about the USA? It’s not particularly economically or politically free, it’s not the only civilized English-speaking country, it’s not the wealthiest9…’, then you are headed down the path of opting out. This is just wrong. There are plenty of well adjusted people who aren't nationalists.
- squiggleblaz 7y ago
  Thinking "The country I live in now is the best country in the world for people like me; I would be terribly unhappy if I was exiled." is not being nationalist. At most it's patriotic. I miss my home country and I feel exiled by (one of) the government's policies. Every bit of my home is a deep part of me. I hope one day to return to live. I wouldn't want my home country to be divided, for security reasons, nor to be ruled by an outside power (though one can hear the English salivating at the possibility they could re-invade once Brexit is complete). But probably the transfer of power back downwards would, in my home country as in America, help heal the wounds of the last decade more than anything.
joaksl 7y ago
An american anime geek does not have more in common with a japanese anime geek than an american evangelical. Race, nation, language, history, etc are far more potent than what naive utopian people wish it were. Communists used to think like you. They felt that a german factory worker had more in common with a french or russian or chinese factory worker and that introducing communist ideas would let awaken them to this "fact" and they wouldn't join the army to kill each other. WW1 and WW2 proved that german, french, russian, chinese, etc factories were more than willing to kill each other by the millions. > The geek thinks, ‘Meh: here, Canada, London, Japan, Singapore—as long as FedEx can reach me and there’s a good Internet connection, what’s the difference?’ (Nor are the technically-inclined alone in this.8) I guess the "geek" hasn't tried to getting visas or immigrating to those places. Also, you have to realize that all it takes in just one nationalist movement to spur nationalism almost everywhere. Nationalism has that kind of virtuous cycle. Look at the current US-China trade war. It not only increases nationalism in the US, it also increases in China.
- claudiawerner 7y ago
  >An american anime geek does not have more in common with a japanese anime geek than an american evangelical. Race, nation, language, history, etc are far more potent than what naive utopian people wish it were. Studies on international otaku subcultures show large commonalities between them. Perhaps you just chose a bad example, but I don't think your point is convincing.
- nyolfen 7y ago
  the transnational class of european factory workers didn't spend all day talking to each other for their whole lives. you could also easily reframe your post to be about liberals or nationalists instead of communists and come to the opposite conclusion. "the idea that a bavarian and a westphalian..." etc. all groupings beyond the clan are synthetic and political.

opportune 7y ago

Subculture is not the same as opting out, though. Nor is there a dichotomy of being either a member of a subculture vs society at large. There are American otaku geeks who are nationalistic christians. I mean, that is a lot of what 4chan is these days. >You can test this yourself. Tell yourself —‘The country I live in now is the best country in the world for people like me; I would be terribly unhappy if I was exiled.’ If your mental reply goes something like, ‘Why, what’s so special about the USA? It’s not particularly economically or politically free, it’s not the only civilized English-speaking country, it’s not the wealthiest9…’, then you are headed down the path of opting out. This is just wrong. There are plenty of well adjusted people who aren't nationalists.

squiggleblaz 7y ago
Thinking "The country I live in now is the best country in the world for people like me; I would be terribly unhappy if I was exiled." is not being nationalist. At most it's patriotic. I miss my home country and I feel exiled by (one of) the government's policies. Every bit of my home is a deep part of me. I hope one day to return to live. I wouldn't want my home country to be divided, for security reasons, nor to be ruled by an outside power (though one can hear the English salivating at the possibility they could re-invade once Brexit is complete). But probably the transfer of power back downwards would, in my home country as in America, help heal the wounds of the last decade more than anything.

joaksl 7y ago

An american anime geek does not have more in common with a japanese anime geek than an american evangelical. Race, nation, language, history, etc are far more potent than what naive utopian people wish it were. Communists used to think like you. They felt that a german factory worker had more in common with a french or russian or chinese factory worker and that introducing communist ideas would let awaken them to this "fact" and they wouldn't join the army to kill each other. WW1 and WW2 proved that german, french, russian, chinese, etc factories were more than willing to kill each other by the millions. > The geek thinks, ‘Meh: here, Canada, London, Japan, Singapore—as long as FedEx can reach me and there’s a good Internet connection, what’s the difference?’ (Nor are the technically-inclined alone in this.8) I guess the "geek" hasn't tried to getting visas or immigrating to those places. Also, you have to realize that all it takes in just one nationalist movement to spur nationalism almost everywhere. Nationalism has that kind of virtuous cycle. Look at the current US-China trade war. It not only increases nationalism in the US, it also increases in China.

claudiawerner 7y ago
>An american anime geek does not have more in common with a japanese anime geek than an american evangelical. Race, nation, language, history, etc are far more potent than what naive utopian people wish it were. Studies on international otaku subcultures show large commonalities between them. Perhaps you just chose a bad example, but I don't think your point is convincing.
nyolfen 7y ago
the transnational class of european factory workers didn't spend all day talking to each other for their whole lives. you could also easily reframe your post to be about liberals or nationalists instead of communists and come to the opposite conclusion. "the idea that a bavarian and a westphalian..." etc. all groupings beyond the clan are synthetic and political.