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So a couple guys in the top .1% net worth (outliers by any measure) don’t think their spouses were treated fairly by a credit check. It must be systemic discrim

So a couple guys in the top .1% net worth (outliers by any measure) don’t think their spouses were treated fairly by a credit check. It must be systemic discrimination. Also NYS is not a community property state, as DHH claimed, so he is full of shit on that one.

solidsnack9000 7y ago
When you mention their level of wealth, it also makes me consider their fame in the tech industry and it makes me wonder what the absolute credit limits are. They may be unusually high; and they may have gotten them in part because Apple knew who they were. Maybe their wives were treated fairly and they weren't. Say DHH got 10K USD. Then his wife got 5K USD which is really low for someone with the assets she can likely claim. But let's say he got 1M USD and his wife got a mere 50K USD...kind of a different story then.
- Spooky23 7y ago
  It all depends. Do they make income from work or investments? Does the spouse have a credit history? Do they have work history? Banks do underwriting in various ways. When I (white male) got an AMEX student card in college 25 years ago, I had a $3k limit. MBNA and Citi gave me $35,000 and $20,000, respectively.
- scarface74 7y ago
  I don’t know of any consumer credit product that takes assets into account. I doubt very seriously that Apple would call Goldman and ask them to give some people special treatment. I’m not saying that Apple wouldn’t do that because it isn’t fair. They wouldn’t waste their time doing it.
  - sgerenser 7y ago
    I had mentioned on a previous thread on this topic that I've found that once you're over the "good credit" threshold, I've found that a big indicator of what credit limit you'll get on a new card is what your credit limit is on OTHER cards on your credit report. Basically, the bank is "crowdsourcing" the decision of how much credit they can trust you with to all the other banks that have trusted you in the past (whether that's the right approach or not is up to debate). I think the other idea is you have to give someone at least the same, if not higher, credit limit as the other cards they already have or they won't bother using your card. Therefore, its possible that DHH has some ultra-premium cards with 100K limits or whatever, while his wife does not, and despite having similar credit limits "the algorithm" says "hey this guy has huge credit limits and an Amex Black card, we better give him a huge limit too."
- tom_mellior 7y ago
  > they may have gotten them in part because Apple knew who they were This is bending over backwards to make up a "certain people are singled out for better treatment" story just so you don't have to admit to yourself that a "certain people are singled out for worse treatment" story is at least as plausible.
throwaway0xb 7y ago
Where did he claim NY is a community property state?
- braindeath 7y ago
  In his tweet from 3:34pm on Nov 7 that started a huge bitchfest. And wow I read the rest of it. Woman this women that.. and yet no idea where he’s getting any evidence this issue has to do with gender. I mean maybe they made an unfair calculation for her, why is it all of a sudden clearly a case of gender discrimination. Either he’s having a tantrum or trying to virtue signal for some unknown reason very hard. https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1192540900393705474?s=20 https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1192540900393705474?s=20
  - function_seven 7y ago
    I thought DHH was in Chicago, not New York? (Though Illinois is also not a community property state, so there's that.) That aside, his evidence is limited because Apple and GS both refuse to share the rationale behind their credit decisions. It's an algorithm. So he's basing it on what he does know.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - throwaway0xb 7y ago
    I believe he lives in California.
- Spooky23 7y ago
  He said that they live in a community property state. (I have no idea where he lives.) https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1192540900393705474?s=20 https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1192540900393705474?s=20
Twirrim 7y ago
Does it not concern you in the slightest, that when they've ended up speaking to higher and higher up people in the various organisations that they literally don't know why the algorithm decided the way it did? No one they've spoken to can figure it out, which means they themselves can't also rule out discrimination happening. A lot of the technology we produce is fundamentally biased by our own perceptions, and in ML case most especially by the input data. The danger is a self-perpetuation of already established systemic bias. Given access to good credit is key towards economic mobility that can have massive ongoing implications. The fact that they're saying "It's just what the algorithm produces" should be triggering huge alarm bells, regardless of the veracity of any of his other claims.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- xienze 7y ago
  > when they've ended up speaking to higher and higher up people in the various organisations that they literally don't know why the algorithm decided the way it did? I don’t think it’s really fair to expect a C-level exec to know the low-level details of how creditworthiness is determined. I’m sure they can paint in broad strokes, but expecting a detailed answer for why a specific person got approved for a certain amount is a bit of a reach. In the case of Woz having a higher limit than his wife, I’m sure it boils down to the usual stuff like, oh I don’t know, not being a cofounder of a massively successful corporation and therefore being filthy rich for the last 30+ years. There might very well be a case to be made here but not likely between two people who are so very different in financial terms (or were for most of their lives). Your credit score isn’t something that changes the instant you get married to someone who’s rich.
- powvans 7y ago
  Perhaps the people who are "higher and higher up" don't know what the inputs to the algorithm were and therefore can't say one way or the other. Perhaps those inputs are sensitive PII which shouldn't be accessible to the customer support reps who are trying to answer these concerns. Now that's probably cause for concern too, of course. Imagine if you actually saw the massive personal data trove that has been collected on you which is being used to make these decisions. Sends a shiver up the spine doesn't it?
ymolodtsov 7y ago
Wozniak isn’t in the top 0.1%. He lost his fortune and makes money via speaking now.
- braindeath 7y ago
  That’s a bold claim. He lost a fortune that would have made him a billionaire and possibly one of the 100 richest people in the world. He is still a very, very wealthy man.

solidsnack9000 7y ago

When you mention their level of wealth, it also makes me consider their fame in the tech industry and it makes me wonder what the absolute credit limits are. They may be unusually high; and they may have gotten them in part because Apple knew who they were. Maybe their wives were treated fairly and they weren't. Say DHH got 10K USD. Then his wife got 5K USD which is really low for someone with the assets she can likely claim. But let's say he got 1M USD and his wife got a mere 50K USD...kind of a different story then.

Spooky23 7y ago
It all depends. Do they make income from work or investments? Does the spouse have a credit history? Do they have work history? Banks do underwriting in various ways. When I (white male) got an AMEX student card in college 25 years ago, I had a $3k limit. MBNA and Citi gave me $35,000 and $20,000, respectively.
scarface74 7y ago
I don’t know of any consumer credit product that takes assets into account. I doubt very seriously that Apple would call Goldman and ask them to give some people special treatment. I’m not saying that Apple wouldn’t do that because it isn’t fair. They wouldn’t waste their time doing it.
- sgerenser 7y ago
  I had mentioned on a previous thread on this topic that I've found that once you're over the "good credit" threshold, I've found that a big indicator of what credit limit you'll get on a new card is what your credit limit is on OTHER cards on your credit report. Basically, the bank is "crowdsourcing" the decision of how much credit they can trust you with to all the other banks that have trusted you in the past (whether that's the right approach or not is up to debate). I think the other idea is you have to give someone at least the same, if not higher, credit limit as the other cards they already have or they won't bother using your card. Therefore, its possible that DHH has some ultra-premium cards with 100K limits or whatever, while his wife does not, and despite having similar credit limits "the algorithm" says "hey this guy has huge credit limits and an Amex Black card, we better give him a huge limit too."
tom_mellior 7y ago
> they may have gotten them in part because Apple knew who they were This is bending over backwards to make up a "certain people are singled out for better treatment" story just so you don't have to admit to yourself that a "certain people are singled out for worse treatment" story is at least as plausible.

throwaway0xb 7y ago

Where did he claim NY is a community property state?

braindeath 7y ago
In his tweet from 3:34pm on Nov 7 that started a huge bitchfest. And wow I read the rest of it. Woman this women that.. and yet no idea where he’s getting any evidence this issue has to do with gender. I mean maybe they made an unfair calculation for her, why is it all of a sudden clearly a case of gender discrimination. Either he’s having a tantrum or trying to virtue signal for some unknown reason very hard. https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1192540900393705474?s=20 https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1192540900393705474?s=20
- function_seven 7y ago
  I thought DHH was in Chicago, not New York? (Though Illinois is also not a community property state, so there's that.) That aside, his evidence is limited because Apple and GS both refuse to share the rationale behind their credit decisions. It's an algorithm. So he's basing it on what he does know.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- throwaway0xb 7y ago
  I believe he lives in California.
Spooky23 7y ago
He said that they live in a community property state. (I have no idea where he lives.) https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1192540900393705474?s=20 https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1192540900393705474?s=20

Twirrim 7y ago

Does it not concern you in the slightest, that when they've ended up speaking to higher and higher up people in the various organisations that they literally don't know why the algorithm decided the way it did? No one they've spoken to can figure it out, which means they themselves can't also rule out discrimination happening. A lot of the technology we produce is fundamentally biased by our own perceptions, and in ML case most especially by the input data. The danger is a self-perpetuation of already established systemic bias. Given access to good credit is key towards economic mobility that can have massive ongoing implications. The fact that they're saying "It's just what the algorithm produces" should be triggering huge alarm bells, regardless of the veracity of any of his other claims.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
xienze 7y ago
> when they've ended up speaking to higher and higher up people in the various organisations that they literally don't know why the algorithm decided the way it did? I don’t think it’s really fair to expect a C-level exec to know the low-level details of how creditworthiness is determined. I’m sure they can paint in broad strokes, but expecting a detailed answer for why a specific person got approved for a certain amount is a bit of a reach. In the case of Woz having a higher limit than his wife, I’m sure it boils down to the usual stuff like, oh I don’t know, not being a cofounder of a massively successful corporation and therefore being filthy rich for the last 30+ years. There might very well be a case to be made here but not likely between two people who are so very different in financial terms (or were for most of their lives). Your credit score isn’t something that changes the instant you get married to someone who’s rich.
powvans 7y ago
Perhaps the people who are "higher and higher up" don't know what the inputs to the algorithm were and therefore can't say one way or the other. Perhaps those inputs are sensitive PII which shouldn't be accessible to the customer support reps who are trying to answer these concerns. Now that's probably cause for concern too, of course. Imagine if you actually saw the massive personal data trove that has been collected on you which is being used to make these decisions. Sends a shiver up the spine doesn't it?

ymolodtsov 7y ago

Wozniak isn’t in the top 0.1%. He lost his fortune and makes money via speaking now.

braindeath 7y ago
That’s a bold claim. He lost a fortune that would have made him a billionaire and possibly one of the 100 richest people in the world. He is still a very, very wealthy man.