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The article starts with: "A network that once seemed to effortlessly defy regulation is being relentlessly, and often ruthlessly, domesticated." And yet conclu

by gz5 7y ago

The article starts with: "A network that once seemed to effortlessly defy regulation is being relentlessly, and often ruthlessly, domesticated." And yet concludes with: "Fifty years after the birth of the internet, it may well be that national governments, wielding enlightened regulation, are the last best hope for maintaining a network that is—at least relatively—open and free." Am I missing something? How could "regulation" be a possible answer to "digital nationalism"? Are there examples of what the author is referring to as "enlightened regulation" in which regulation has had the desired impacts? Seems to me that far more often we see a mix of intended and unintended consequences. I would add that web != Internet. Internet is closer to printing press. A world in which there are billions of TCP/IP stacks on personal compute with Internet access is not one which is easily controlled (for good or for bad) by regulation.

knzhou 7y ago
It’s an example of Russell conjugation. My country performs enlightened regulation. Your country causes unintended consequences. Their country ruthlessly promotes digital nationalism. Three verb phrases, one meaning.
- mirimir 7y ago
  Right. > The trend is no longer restricted to authoritarian states. I guess that depends on how you define "authoritarian state". It's arguable that all control is authoritarian.
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    Perhaps so. That doesn't mean that all control is equivalent, though. There is (at the moment) a significant difference between the Great Firewall and the level of regulation that exists in, say, the EU.
  - squiggleblaz 7y ago
    Get rid of the authoritarian state and get authoritarian warlords competing in anarchy (using your body). I mean, give a word a meaning. Surely the difference between North Korea and Canada isn't merely in the stress.
    - mirimir 7y ago
      There are many alternatives between "authoritarian state" and "failed state". Any state with laws against victimless crime is authoritarian. Examples of victimless crime include drug use, sex between consenting adults and suicide. I favor bottom-up political structure. Local governments handle local matters. Broader levels handle relationships among local governments, and enforce human rights. All corporations should be held to public-interest charters.
sdenton4 7y ago
TBH, non-regulation is also a mix of intended (free speech! easy money transfers!) and unintended (child porn! murder contract markets!) consequences. I prefer to think of policy than regulation. Regulations are a collection of policies. Non-regulation is also a policy. And policies should be evaluated honestly on their merits.
- Chris_Chambers 7y ago
  It’s good to spread child porn because it’s evidence of an unsolved crime and the more people who might recognize the perpetrators the better. In fact with the Epstein operation now coming to light you could very reasonably argue that CP laws were pushed by pedophiles in power such as Bill Clinton who wanted to reduce the chances they’d ever get caught. Murder contract markets aren’t really bad either, plenty of people urgently need to die for the world to become a better place.
narag 7y ago
My WTF moment was when the chinese firewall was compared with laws forbidding to put private citizens data in foreign clouds. Digital nationalism, sure.
- Nasrudith 7y ago
  Both are "no data beyond our reach" laws. Lets face it such a restriction isn't innocent no matter how much they chant the Jedi mind trick of "National Security" to dodge criticism.
Nasrudith 7y ago
Probably not what was meant but I can see one way to go against it. International treaties against say great firewalls and such. But talking about "sense of fairness and inclusivity" makes me suspect cluelessness.
paulddraper 7y ago
"Enlightened regulation" is the modern-day "enlightened despot." A sufficiently intelligent authority produces good authoritarian results.
gbanfalvi 7y ago
> Am I missing something? How could "regulation" be a possible answer to "digital nationalism"? Are there examples of what the author is referring to as "enlightened regulation" in which regulation has had the desired impacts? Seems to me that far more often we see a mix of intended and unintended consequences. How are net neutrality laws, a form of regulation, a safeguard to keep the internet open and free? > I would add that web != Internet. Internet is closer to printing press. A world in which there are billions of TCP/IP stacks on personal compute with Internet access is not one which is easily controlled (for good or for bad) by regulation. This distinction is meaningless. The author may have have conflated the terms, but most people’s primary (and often only) exposure to the internet is via a web browser. They’re clearly not concerned about the spread of nationalism via IP cameras.
- jakeogh 7y ago
  They arent. They are attempts to limit speech. Borders are the biggest problem for centralized power. They create markets of ideas, and having their subjects see that is an extensial threat, hence the language engineering and constant attempts to induce self/country shame.
- gz5 7y ago
  > How are net neutrality laws, a form of regulation, a safeguard to keep the internet open and free? Agreed, great example. The free market approach would be to ease the regulations on access and spectrum which have limited last mile competition in the US. Less regulation - not more - would lead to an enviro in which an ISP who was preferring certain content would be genuinely risking losing customers by doing so (and might gain certain types of customers, opening niches for other ISPs to win other customers, which would be fine too).
  - gbanfalvi 7y ago
    > Less regulation - not more - would lead to an enviro in which an ISP who was preferring certain content would be genuinely risking losing customers by doing so (and might gain certain types of customers, opening niches for other ISPs to win other customers, which would be fine too). Haha no, Ajit. You either take the ISP you get, charging whatever you for whatever they want https://www.google.se/amp/s/arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/07/comcast-or-charter-is-the-only-25mbps-choice-for-68-million-americans/%3famp=1 https://www.google.se/amp/s/arstechnica.com/information-tech..., or you go check your e-mail at the nearest coffee shop.
danmaz74 7y ago
An optimistic interpretation is this one: an enlightened, mutually agreed regulation is the last best hope against a non-enlightened, nationalistic regulation.
w1nst0nsm1th 7y ago
The New Deal is one of these exemples : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal. May be a lot of us need to starve again before those who seems to believe regulation (taxes ?) is the source of all evil start to change their mind.

by gz5 7y ago

knzhou 7y ago

It’s an example of Russell conjugation. My country performs enlightened regulation. Your country causes unintended consequences. Their country ruthlessly promotes digital nationalism. Three verb phrases, one meaning.

mirimir 7y ago
Right. > The trend is no longer restricted to authoritarian states. I guess that depends on how you define "authoritarian state". It's arguable that all control is authoritarian.
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  Perhaps so. That doesn't mean that all control is equivalent, though. There is (at the moment) a significant difference between the Great Firewall and the level of regulation that exists in, say, the EU.
- squiggleblaz 7y ago
  Get rid of the authoritarian state and get authoritarian warlords competing in anarchy (using your body). I mean, give a word a meaning. Surely the difference between North Korea and Canada isn't merely in the stress.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    There are many alternatives between "authoritarian state" and "failed state". Any state with laws against victimless crime is authoritarian. Examples of victimless crime include drug use, sex between consenting adults and suicide. I favor bottom-up political structure. Local governments handle local matters. Broader levels handle relationships among local governments, and enforce human rights. All corporations should be held to public-interest charters.

sdenton4 7y ago

TBH, non-regulation is also a mix of intended (free speech! easy money transfers!) and unintended (child porn! murder contract markets!) consequences. I prefer to think of policy than regulation. Regulations are a collection of policies. Non-regulation is also a policy. And policies should be evaluated honestly on their merits.

Chris_Chambers 7y ago
It’s good to spread child porn because it’s evidence of an unsolved crime and the more people who might recognize the perpetrators the better. In fact with the Epstein operation now coming to light you could very reasonably argue that CP laws were pushed by pedophiles in power such as Bill Clinton who wanted to reduce the chances they’d ever get caught. Murder contract markets aren’t really bad either, plenty of people urgently need to die for the world to become a better place.

narag 7y ago

My WTF moment was when the chinese firewall was compared with laws forbidding to put private citizens data in foreign clouds. Digital nationalism, sure.

Nasrudith 7y ago
Both are "no data beyond our reach" laws. Lets face it such a restriction isn't innocent no matter how much they chant the Jedi mind trick of "National Security" to dodge criticism.

Nasrudith 7y ago

Probably not what was meant but I can see one way to go against it. International treaties against say great firewalls and such. But talking about "sense of fairness and inclusivity" makes me suspect cluelessness.

paulddraper 7y ago

"Enlightened regulation" is the modern-day "enlightened despot." A sufficiently intelligent authority produces good authoritarian results.

gbanfalvi 7y ago

> Am I missing something? How could "regulation" be a possible answer to "digital nationalism"? Are there examples of what the author is referring to as "enlightened regulation" in which regulation has had the desired impacts? Seems to me that far more often we see a mix of intended and unintended consequences. How are net neutrality laws, a form of regulation, a safeguard to keep the internet open and free? > I would add that web != Internet. Internet is closer to printing press. A world in which there are billions of TCP/IP stacks on personal compute with Internet access is not one which is easily controlled (for good or for bad) by regulation. This distinction is meaningless. The author may have have conflated the terms, but most people’s primary (and often only) exposure to the internet is via a web browser. They’re clearly not concerned about the spread of nationalism via IP cameras.

jakeogh 7y ago
They arent. They are attempts to limit speech. Borders are the biggest problem for centralized power. They create markets of ideas, and having their subjects see that is an extensial threat, hence the language engineering and constant attempts to induce self/country shame.
gz5 7y ago
> How are net neutrality laws, a form of regulation, a safeguard to keep the internet open and free? Agreed, great example. The free market approach would be to ease the regulations on access and spectrum which have limited last mile competition in the US. Less regulation - not more - would lead to an enviro in which an ISP who was preferring certain content would be genuinely risking losing customers by doing so (and might gain certain types of customers, opening niches for other ISPs to win other customers, which would be fine too).
- gbanfalvi 7y ago
  > Less regulation - not more - would lead to an enviro in which an ISP who was preferring certain content would be genuinely risking losing customers by doing so (and might gain certain types of customers, opening niches for other ISPs to win other customers, which would be fine too). Haha no, Ajit. You either take the ISP you get, charging whatever you for whatever they want https://www.google.se/amp/s/arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/07/comcast-or-charter-is-the-only-25mbps-choice-for-68-million-americans/%3famp=1 https://www.google.se/amp/s/arstechnica.com/information-tech..., or you go check your e-mail at the nearest coffee shop.

danmaz74 7y ago

An optimistic interpretation is this one: an enlightened, mutually agreed regulation is the last best hope against a non-enlightened, nationalistic regulation.

w1nst0nsm1th 7y ago

The New Deal is one of these exemples : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal. May be a lot of us need to starve again before those who seems to believe regulation (taxes ?) is the source of all evil start to change their mind.