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> This is akin to looking up words you don't know in a foreign language and hoping through repeated exposure that you learn the right words to use. It's very sl

> This is akin to looking up words you don't know in a foreign language and hoping through repeated exposure that you learn the right words to use. It's very slow and frustrating. It is much more efficient to just know stuff off the top of your head. > Just because you look stuff up doesn't mean you efficiently memorize those things either. Reading had been proven to be a poor strategy for studying. The research of Krashen, Mason and other L2 acquisition linguists on extensive reading for language learners directly contradicts this claim. Regular, sustained reading is considerably more effective for acquiring a language than flashcard-based methods. Anki is great and I'm a contributor! But it's more of an ancillary tool. SRS shines when it comes to memorizing decontextualized, atomic information (e.g. countries and capitals, the periodic table of elements or writing Japanese kanji), but not for learning a language in general.

kiba 7y ago
The research of Krashen, Mason and other L2 acquisition linguists on extensive reading for language learners directly contradicts this claim. Regular, sustained reading is considerably more effective for acquiring a language than flashcard-based methods. I am not disputing reading in the language learning context as a tool for learning, especially when combined with SRS. Doesn't really apply to me since there is no widespread written component for ASL. By reading, I meant people rereading their old notes instead of actively challenging themselves. That is, no attempt at retrieval-practice that is the basis for spaced repetition. Research said that study method is often regarded as effort in vain. But that apply to contexts such as studying biology. Reading in a foreign language is a different context in that you are also learning new materials and practicing retrieval at the same time. Anki is great and I'm a contributor! But it's more of an ancillary tool. SRS shines when it comes to memorizing decontextualized, atomic information (e.g. countries and capitals, the periodic table of elements or writing Japanese kanji), but not for learning a language in general. I don't see how it's impossible to use anki for contextualized learning. It's the whole point of sentence mining. Rather, with no context, it's essentially useless since I wouldn't know how to use it in context. Periodic table is a great example for this. When I don't know the answer to questions anki posed, I used related information to retrieve what I need to know. In my case, I have no reading materials to sentence mine, so I just mine ASL videos.
- munmaek 7y ago
  > SRS shines when it comes to memorizing decontextualized, atomic information (e.g. countries and capitals, the periodic table of elements or writing Japanese kanji), but not for learning a language in general. I have acquired >3,000 words from daily anki usage in Korean. Not only is it possible, it's the only way for me because inputting words into anki (or any SRS system) takes so long. I interleave two decks: a premade sorted one with 5.8k words, and my personal deck that I occasionally add to. The issue is that later on, you start delving into ambiguous territory for words. I've found that it's impossible if you maintain a (word in your native language) frontside and (target language word) on the backside. Now I am slowly migrating to having the definition of the word in Korean on the front, and the target word on the back. I'm sure this won't be perfect, but it's better than having one english word potentially map to many korean words. Using anki has bolstered my Korean learning because, well, I can recognize more words when I read or watch native material! Previously it was impossible for me to read the news because I had to look up every. single. word. Now it's more like 65-80%, which makes it much more tolerable. In an ideal world one would learn a word, then put it into anki, but it's simple math. ~1 min per word (very generous) is only 60 words per hour. I usually fluctuate between 1-2 minutes because I have to check 2 dictionaries to make sure it's accurate, then add other data like grammatical type, and so forth. It may be easier for a language that lacks chinese characters, but I have to make 3 dictionary searches to add one card. So I only rarely add anki cards now... I have notebooks filled with lists and lists of words that I wrote down from seeing it in native material, that I just don't have time to manually add into anki. If I were -only- studying Korean, then I could muster ~2-4 hours a week or so to add anki cards. But I have work, and life, and other hobbies, etc. Any time spent not adding cards, is more time for me to study my other decks, etc.
  - kiba 7y ago
    The issue is that later on, you start delving into ambiguous territory for words. I've found that it's impossible if you maintain a (word in your native language) frontside and (target language word) on the backside. First thought is that you should do sentence mining. That way you have the context surrounding it that let you figure out how the word is meant to be used? Second thought, have you think about using symbolic images to avoid tying a word to target language? I found it difficult to use since you have to make your own symbols and concepts, and re-purposing images to represent something. Not time efficient, and I am not sure if it's actually effective. OTOH, it should get easier and faster as I amass more conceptual images. For example, I have an example of "one" and "hour", so I can combine them to make "one hour" without English or any other written language involved.

kiba 7y ago

The research of Krashen, Mason and other L2 acquisition linguists on extensive reading for language learners directly contradicts this claim. Regular, sustained reading is considerably more effective for acquiring a language than flashcard-based methods. I am not disputing reading in the language learning context as a tool for learning, especially when combined with SRS. Doesn't really apply to me since there is no widespread written component for ASL. By reading, I meant people rereading their old notes instead of actively challenging themselves. That is, no attempt at retrieval-practice that is the basis for spaced repetition. Research said that study method is often regarded as effort in vain. But that apply to contexts such as studying biology. Reading in a foreign language is a different context in that you are also learning new materials and practicing retrieval at the same time. Anki is great and I'm a contributor! But it's more of an ancillary tool. SRS shines when it comes to memorizing decontextualized, atomic information (e.g. countries and capitals, the periodic table of elements or writing Japanese kanji), but not for learning a language in general. I don't see how it's impossible to use anki for contextualized learning. It's the whole point of sentence mining. Rather, with no context, it's essentially useless since I wouldn't know how to use it in context. Periodic table is a great example for this. When I don't know the answer to questions anki posed, I used related information to retrieve what I need to know. In my case, I have no reading materials to sentence mine, so I just mine ASL videos.

munmaek 7y ago
> SRS shines when it comes to memorizing decontextualized, atomic information (e.g. countries and capitals, the periodic table of elements or writing Japanese kanji), but not for learning a language in general. I have acquired >3,000 words from daily anki usage in Korean. Not only is it possible, it's the only way for me because inputting words into anki (or any SRS system) takes so long. I interleave two decks: a premade sorted one with 5.8k words, and my personal deck that I occasionally add to. The issue is that later on, you start delving into ambiguous territory for words. I've found that it's impossible if you maintain a (word in your native language) frontside and (target language word) on the backside. Now I am slowly migrating to having the definition of the word in Korean on the front, and the target word on the back. I'm sure this won't be perfect, but it's better than having one english word potentially map to many korean words. Using anki has bolstered my Korean learning because, well, I can recognize more words when I read or watch native material! Previously it was impossible for me to read the news because I had to look up every. single. word. Now it's more like 65-80%, which makes it much more tolerable. In an ideal world one would learn a word, then put it into anki, but it's simple math. ~1 min per word (very generous) is only 60 words per hour. I usually fluctuate between 1-2 minutes because I have to check 2 dictionaries to make sure it's accurate, then add other data like grammatical type, and so forth. It may be easier for a language that lacks chinese characters, but I have to make 3 dictionary searches to add one card. So I only rarely add anki cards now... I have notebooks filled with lists and lists of words that I wrote down from seeing it in native material, that I just don't have time to manually add into anki. If I were -only- studying Korean, then I could muster ~2-4 hours a week or so to add anki cards. But I have work, and life, and other hobbies, etc. Any time spent not adding cards, is more time for me to study my other decks, etc.
- kiba 7y ago
  The issue is that later on, you start delving into ambiguous territory for words. I've found that it's impossible if you maintain a (word in your native language) frontside and (target language word) on the backside. First thought is that you should do sentence mining. That way you have the context surrounding it that let you figure out how the word is meant to be used? Second thought, have you think about using symbolic images to avoid tying a word to target language? I found it difficult to use since you have to make your own symbols and concepts, and re-purposing images to represent something. Not time efficient, and I am not sure if it's actually effective. OTOH, it should get easier and faster as I amass more conceptual images. For example, I have an example of "one" and "hour", so I can combine them to make "one hour" without English or any other written language involved.