7 ms·

There already is a recurring pattern. Not exactly like this situation, but a pattern of discriminating against anything that is not French. It's getting complet

by cmer 7y ago

There already is a recurring pattern. Not exactly like this situation, but a pattern of discriminating against anything that is not French. It's getting completely out of hands. Soon, "non historic anglos" (ie immigrants) won't be allowed to get their hydro bill, correspondence from the government or any service in English. We moved out of Quebec mostly for the politics 5 years ago and I'm so glad I did. We're never going back.

deanCommie 7y ago
I mean you wouldn't have this reaction if you moved to France. Quebec's official language is French - regardless of its status within the rest of Canada. Why would you move it immigrate to Quebec if you are not willing to learn French? If you like Canada but not French, go to Vancouver or Toronto
- frabbit 7y ago
  Exactly. Ce n'est pas facile à apprendre mais c'est possible.
- jszymborski 7y ago
  Anglophones built Quebec alongside Francophones. We've as much right to this province as francophones. Also, here's a hot-tip: telling people they don't belong somewhere and that they should go live elsewhere is usually a really great heuristic of when you're extremely wrong.
  - braythwayt 7y ago
    Well, the post you're replying to puts things in a way I'm not comfortable with. But inside it is something very correct: French is the official language of Québec. If you want to live there and not do business with people in French, that is your problem. I wouldn't say you don't belong there. By all means belong there. But the official language is French today, regardless of who built the province. If you want the province's official languages to be English and French, well, democracy is there to make that possible, even if it's unlikely at the moment. You have a right to live in Québec. But for the moment, not a right to demand that businesses or government agencies communicate with you in English. --- As for me, I lve in Ontario. And FWIW, I believe very deeply that our society should beend over backwards to do business with people in a language they understand. So if someone is in trouble with the law, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to providing them with a translator. I think government web sites should have all sorts of translations available. I believe in the melting pot. But... All I can do is advocate for it and vote for it. If a different province votes for something else... I respect that. I feel that official languages is in a very different bucket than laws about what people can wear in public.
    - Gibbon1 7y ago
      > You have a right to live in Québec. But for the moment, not a right to demand that businesses or government agencies communicate with you in English. Just wow how utterly pissant.
      - umanwizard 7y ago
        Would you demand that businesses or government agencies communicate with you in English in Spain or China? If so, sure, you have a consistent position at least. If not, why is Quebec different?
        Gunax 7y ago
        We are a bilingual country. The rest of Canada bends over backwards to offer services in French which are seldom utilized. I would not ask for English in Spain or China because it isn't an official language there. We have a national law that all students--anywhere in the country--can receive instruction in either English or French--but this has been consistently undermined in Quebec. They have made it so arduous to qualify for English school* that nearly all English speakers will not qualify. That is just one example of the double standard. If you want the country to be bilingual, then it has to work both ways. * The rule is something like "Both of your parents must be native Quebec and both must have attended English school in Quebec for their entire childhood. Any deviation from this and you cannot qualify to English school". So anyone who immigrates from the rest of Canada, or has one French/one English parent is disqualified.
        angry_octet 7y ago
        It's basically slow cultural cleninsing. The English schools will basically be gone in 30 years. (Even though many are 50/50 English/French for class work.) Meanwhile no one wants to go to a French language CEGEP (years 11-13) because they need to learn English, and people in Ontario fight to get their kids into bilingual immersion schools.
        kalenx 7y ago
  - seszett 7y ago
    Saying anglophones built Quebec alongside the francophones sounds a bit like French people saying they built Algeria or Vietnam as a justification for not granting it independence. The reality is that the anglophones built Quebec because they were colonizing it, and without them the francophones would have "built Quebec" just as well.
    - shkkmo 7y ago
      The French started earnestly colonizing Quebec less than 100 years before the British conquest so that analogy does not seem apt at all...
      - seszett 7y ago
        What matters is that the inhabitants when Britain invaded were almost all French, and French speaking. It doesn't matter much if their parents had been there for a long time already or not, it was their home and they had founded it.
        shkkmo 7y ago
        Both countries invaded, both English and French speaking people built it into what it is today. Arguing about which imperialist culture was there first (especially when the difference is so small historically) to justify attempts to exclude one of those cultures is VERY different than arguing that imperialized regions have a right to independence. There is a vast difference between spreading discrimination/hate and advocating self-determination. In general, I am in favor of the rights of regions to self determination as it is generally better when people are ruled by a government they consent to. I support the right of Hong Kong, Catalonia, Quebec, Scottland and others to succeed if the majority of their inhabitants have a strong and consistent desire to leave. I do not support discriminatory policies or attitudes that are intended to drive certain groups of people away.
  - deanCommie 7y ago
    What's funny that you think that about me is that I'm an anglophone that absolutely HATED my mandatory French classes in Vancouver high school. I also remember being a kid being ANGRY at Quebec for daring to want to separate, and thought we should just "kick them out, if they want their own country so badly." I've come to appreciate Quebec as a unique and meaningfully distinct part of Canada. I do not think it weakens my Canadian identity to have one part of the country have a fiercely proud and unique perspective on feeling equally Quebecois and Canadian at the same time (or some balance of the two). Just because I don't have a similar sense of identity about my province, doesn't mean others can't. I do think it's a bit unfair that the Federal Government has to treat English and French equally while Quebec itself does not, however I've also learned ago that fair actions and intentions do not always lead to fair outcomes. If Quebec did not fiercely fight to protect it's French-speaking status, it would have died a long time ago and got swallowed up from both sides by the English side of Canada. And that would have been a shame. Finally, I'm an immigrant. And as such, I am deeply welcoming to other immigrants to Canada. But I also am conscious of the fact that refugees notwithstanding, immigrants have a choice in which part of the country they immigrate to. And given that, I don't think that it's unreasonable to build expectations for them that if they move to Quebec they will need to study and master French if they want to integrate. This should not be any more of a shock or burden than expecting Belgian immigrants to understand that there is a French half and a Flemish/Dutch half, and they are quite different.
frabbit 7y ago
The attitude you display in this post suggests that it's a good thing for everyone that you moved. Quebecers are actually very tolerant of Anglophones and while it is difficult to adapt to using a new language it is not impossible and is actually fun in many ways. French survives in a sea of anglophone hegemony only because of such language laws.
- benjohnson 7y ago
  >>Quebecers are actually very tolerant of Anglophones I can vouch for that - if you make any attempt at all to speak the most basic French they love you for making the attempt.
  - angry_octet 7y ago
    Try wearing a turban.
    - kalenx 7y ago
      Well, it depends. If you want a dispense to wear a hard hat of a construction site because of your turban then yes, this may come as a problem: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-court-of-appeal-sikh-truck-drivers-1.5281757 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-court-of-appe...
      - angry_octet 7y ago
        If you were in Québec you couldn't miss seeing all the anti-Singh (NDP leader who happens to be Sikh) comments, many referring to his turban. (It is now illegal in QC to be a public servant and wear e.g. a turban, yarmulke, crucifix, etc. Public buildings are still adorned with crucifexes and saint's names for reasons of 'cultural respect'.)
- angry_octet 7y ago
  This is the distillation of the delusional Québec separatist view. It kills innovation and economic development, and leads to the rampant religious discrimination and xenophobia now seen in the province.
jszymborski 7y ago
I'm sorry to hear you've been driven out by the politics (god knows after 26 years I'm quite exhausted as well). I don't know your story, and you might have been on a sharper end of the stick policy-wise than myself, but I do feel the need to make provincial politics the last thing to consider when contemplating a move if I am able to. I fear that having anglophones flee the province because of these policies are just add fuel to the injustice. I rather be a vocal and present reminder to my neighbors and coworkers that Quebec is made-up of more than the ruling class.
umanwizard 7y ago
I think it's perfectly normal for people in a small enclave nestled in the heart of the giant Anglo-saxon hegemon to feel insecure about the long-term survival of their unique language and culture and want to take extra steps to preserve it. I'm completely sympathetic with them refusing to provide services in a foreign language when that language is a serious threat to their existence as a cultural group. Look what happened to French in Louisiana, or Irish in Ireland, or Native American languages across the continent. Quebecers don't want that to happen to them, and I can't blame them. By the way, always remember that Quebecers never chose to become part of Canada or any English-speaking society; they were conquered by military force.
- gpm 7y ago
  Most places were conquered by military force, multiple times for that matter, that's not what makes Quebec unique or a terribly interesting piece of history. In fact, as places that explicitly chose to be part of a country, Quebec ranks pretty highly, since they've had multiple referendum's about leaving Canada.
  - seszett 7y ago
    What was the referendum result though? 49.4% for statu quo vs. 50.6% for independence? That's not really what I'd call a plebiscite for being part of Canada.
    - gpm 7y ago
      Something like that... and since the referendums happened when Quebec was most inclined to separate (in recent memory) that's really a good sign that > 50% of Quebec would prefer not to.
      - emilfihlman 7y ago
        Are you really thinking that half the province against each other is a good sign? Please.

by cmer 7y ago

deanCommie 7y ago

I mean you wouldn't have this reaction if you moved to France. Quebec's official language is French - regardless of its status within the rest of Canada. Why would you move it immigrate to Quebec if you are not willing to learn French? If you like Canada but not French, go to Vancouver or Toronto

frabbit 7y ago
Exactly. Ce n'est pas facile à apprendre mais c'est possible.
jszymborski 7y ago
Anglophones built Quebec alongside Francophones. We've as much right to this province as francophones. Also, here's a hot-tip: telling people they don't belong somewhere and that they should go live elsewhere is usually a really great heuristic of when you're extremely wrong.
- braythwayt 7y ago
  Well, the post you're replying to puts things in a way I'm not comfortable with. But inside it is something very correct: French is the official language of Québec. If you want to live there and not do business with people in French, that is your problem. I wouldn't say you don't belong there. By all means belong there. But the official language is French today, regardless of who built the province. If you want the province's official languages to be English and French, well, democracy is there to make that possible, even if it's unlikely at the moment. You have a right to live in Québec. But for the moment, not a right to demand that businesses or government agencies communicate with you in English. --- As for me, I lve in Ontario. And FWIW, I believe very deeply that our society should beend over backwards to do business with people in a language they understand. So if someone is in trouble with the law, I am happy to have my tax dollars go to providing them with a translator. I think government web sites should have all sorts of translations available. I believe in the melting pot. But... All I can do is advocate for it and vote for it. If a different province votes for something else... I respect that. I feel that official languages is in a very different bucket than laws about what people can wear in public.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    > You have a right to live in Québec. But for the moment, not a right to demand that businesses or government agencies communicate with you in English. Just wow how utterly pissant.
    - umanwizard 7y ago
      Would you demand that businesses or government agencies communicate with you in English in Spain or China? If so, sure, you have a consistent position at least. If not, why is Quebec different?
      - Gunax 7y ago
        We are a bilingual country. The rest of Canada bends over backwards to offer services in French which are seldom utilized. I would not ask for English in Spain or China because it isn't an official language there. We have a national law that all students--anywhere in the country--can receive instruction in either English or French--but this has been consistently undermined in Quebec. They have made it so arduous to qualify for English school* that nearly all English speakers will not qualify. That is just one example of the double standard. If you want the country to be bilingual, then it has to work both ways. * The rule is something like "Both of your parents must be native Quebec and both must have attended English school in Quebec for their entire childhood. Any deviation from this and you cannot qualify to English school". So anyone who immigrates from the rest of Canada, or has one French/one English parent is disqualified.
        angry_octet 7y ago
        It's basically slow cultural cleninsing. The English schools will basically be gone in 30 years. (Even though many are 50/50 English/French for class work.) Meanwhile no one wants to go to a French language CEGEP (years 11-13) because they need to learn English, and people in Ontario fight to get their kids into bilingual immersion schools.
        kalenx 7y ago
- seszett 7y ago
  Saying anglophones built Quebec alongside the francophones sounds a bit like French people saying they built Algeria or Vietnam as a justification for not granting it independence. The reality is that the anglophones built Quebec because they were colonizing it, and without them the francophones would have "built Quebec" just as well.
  - shkkmo 7y ago
    The French started earnestly colonizing Quebec less than 100 years before the British conquest so that analogy does not seem apt at all...
    - seszett 7y ago
      What matters is that the inhabitants when Britain invaded were almost all French, and French speaking. It doesn't matter much if their parents had been there for a long time already or not, it was their home and they had founded it.
      - shkkmo 7y ago
        Both countries invaded, both English and French speaking people built it into what it is today. Arguing about which imperialist culture was there first (especially when the difference is so small historically) to justify attempts to exclude one of those cultures is VERY different than arguing that imperialized regions have a right to independence. There is a vast difference between spreading discrimination/hate and advocating self-determination. In general, I am in favor of the rights of regions to self determination as it is generally better when people are ruled by a government they consent to. I support the right of Hong Kong, Catalonia, Quebec, Scottland and others to succeed if the majority of their inhabitants have a strong and consistent desire to leave. I do not support discriminatory policies or attitudes that are intended to drive certain groups of people away.
- deanCommie 7y ago
  What's funny that you think that about me is that I'm an anglophone that absolutely HATED my mandatory French classes in Vancouver high school. I also remember being a kid being ANGRY at Quebec for daring to want to separate, and thought we should just "kick them out, if they want their own country so badly." I've come to appreciate Quebec as a unique and meaningfully distinct part of Canada. I do not think it weakens my Canadian identity to have one part of the country have a fiercely proud and unique perspective on feeling equally Quebecois and Canadian at the same time (or some balance of the two). Just because I don't have a similar sense of identity about my province, doesn't mean others can't. I do think it's a bit unfair that the Federal Government has to treat English and French equally while Quebec itself does not, however I've also learned ago that fair actions and intentions do not always lead to fair outcomes. If Quebec did not fiercely fight to protect it's French-speaking status, it would have died a long time ago and got swallowed up from both sides by the English side of Canada. And that would have been a shame. Finally, I'm an immigrant. And as such, I am deeply welcoming to other immigrants to Canada. But I also am conscious of the fact that refugees notwithstanding, immigrants have a choice in which part of the country they immigrate to. And given that, I don't think that it's unreasonable to build expectations for them that if they move to Quebec they will need to study and master French if they want to integrate. This should not be any more of a shock or burden than expecting Belgian immigrants to understand that there is a French half and a Flemish/Dutch half, and they are quite different.

frabbit 7y ago

The attitude you display in this post suggests that it's a good thing for everyone that you moved. Quebecers are actually very tolerant of Anglophones and while it is difficult to adapt to using a new language it is not impossible and is actually fun in many ways. French survives in a sea of anglophone hegemony only because of such language laws.

benjohnson 7y ago
>>Quebecers are actually very tolerant of Anglophones I can vouch for that - if you make any attempt at all to speak the most basic French they love you for making the attempt.
- angry_octet 7y ago
  Try wearing a turban.
  - kalenx 7y ago
    Well, it depends. If you want a dispense to wear a hard hat of a construction site because of your turban then yes, this may come as a problem: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-court-of-appeal-sikh-truck-drivers-1.5281757 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-court-of-appe...
    - angry_octet 7y ago
      If you were in Québec you couldn't miss seeing all the anti-Singh (NDP leader who happens to be Sikh) comments, many referring to his turban. (It is now illegal in QC to be a public servant and wear e.g. a turban, yarmulke, crucifix, etc. Public buildings are still adorned with crucifexes and saint's names for reasons of 'cultural respect'.)
angry_octet 7y ago
This is the distillation of the delusional Québec separatist view. It kills innovation and economic development, and leads to the rampant religious discrimination and xenophobia now seen in the province.

jszymborski 7y ago

I'm sorry to hear you've been driven out by the politics (god knows after 26 years I'm quite exhausted as well). I don't know your story, and you might have been on a sharper end of the stick policy-wise than myself, but I do feel the need to make provincial politics the last thing to consider when contemplating a move if I am able to. I fear that having anglophones flee the province because of these policies are just add fuel to the injustice. I rather be a vocal and present reminder to my neighbors and coworkers that Quebec is made-up of more than the ruling class.

umanwizard 7y ago

I think it's perfectly normal for people in a small enclave nestled in the heart of the giant Anglo-saxon hegemon to feel insecure about the long-term survival of their unique language and culture and want to take extra steps to preserve it. I'm completely sympathetic with them refusing to provide services in a foreign language when that language is a serious threat to their existence as a cultural group. Look what happened to French in Louisiana, or Irish in Ireland, or Native American languages across the continent. Quebecers don't want that to happen to them, and I can't blame them. By the way, always remember that Quebecers never chose to become part of Canada or any English-speaking society; they were conquered by military force.

gpm 7y ago
Most places were conquered by military force, multiple times for that matter, that's not what makes Quebec unique or a terribly interesting piece of history. In fact, as places that explicitly chose to be part of a country, Quebec ranks pretty highly, since they've had multiple referendum's about leaving Canada.
- seszett 7y ago
  What was the referendum result though? 49.4% for statu quo vs. 50.6% for independence? That's not really what I'd call a plebiscite for being part of Canada.
  - gpm 7y ago
    Something like that... and since the referendums happened when Quebec was most inclined to separate (in recent memory) that's really a good sign that > 50% of Quebec would prefer not to.
    - emilfihlman 7y ago
      Are you really thinking that half the province against each other is a good sign? Please.