5 ms·

As much as I support states refusing to wait for the feds to end our disastrous war on drugs policy, this is a reminder that unless we legalize and regulate mar

As much as I support states refusing to wait for the feds to end our disastrous war on drugs policy, this is a reminder that unless we legalize and regulate marijuana at the federal level and make serious efforts to make the legal market work for everyone, there will continue to be a black market. That black market will continue to land people in jail (disproportionately black, Latino, and economically disadvantaged people), help to prop up drug traffickers, and even, as appears to have happened here, needlessly sicken and kill the consumers in an effort to meet demand for products popularized in legal markets. I worry that the marijuana business will be content with descheduling and stop pressing for action as soon as they can use the financial system, and our political system, through inertia, will leave everything else to an ineffective patchwork of state laws. Edit: Just on the subject of ongoing concerns over vaping and health, another critical thing legalization would allow is research. While this particular health crisis for now looks to be mostly or entirely caused by vitamin E oil, there is a lack of science on the long term effects of vaping weed in oil or flower form. There isn’t even that much research on smoking due to the prohibition, and the evidence we do have, which indicates that smoking weed has similar carcinogenic effects to tobacco, isn’t widely known.

fjabre 7y ago
Nicotine is specifically harmful to lung tissue. You state that smoking weed has carcinogenic effects similar to tobacco which very obviously is not the case. They are completely different drugs with completely different side effects. Smoke from marijuana does not equal smoke from tobacco. I am not saying its without negative consequences but they are apples and oranges. Of course we have research on smoked flower. 1000s of years of research. Mankind has been smoking this plant longer than recorded history and Ill take that any day over the literature at pubmed. I would love for the feds to allow more research of course but its still schedule 1 so not much to be done.
- threwawasy1228 7y ago
  This kind of discussion really gets on my nerves. EVERY single type of smoke is carcinogenic. Period. There is a famous study of a sample of boy scout camp councilors/leaders who are non smokers having as much of an incidence of lung cancer as smokers. Why? Because they are constantly standing over campfires inhaling the smoke. There are similar studies about how bad incense is for your lungs. No smoke is safe for you to inhale.
  - Zod666 7y ago
    In conclusion, while both tobacco and cannabis smoke have similar properties chemically, their pharmacological activities differ greatly. Components of cannabis smoke minimize some carcinogenic pathways whereas tobacco smoke enhances some. Both types of smoke contain carcinogens and particulate matter that promotes inflammatory immune responses that may enhance the carcinogenic effects of the smoke. However, cannabis typically down-regulates immunologically-generated free radical production by promoting a Th2 immune cytokine profile. Furthermore, THC inhibits the enzyme necessary to activate some of the carcinogens found in smoke. In contrast, tobacco smoke increases the likelihood of carcinogenesis by overcoming normal cellular checkpoint protective mechanisms through the activity of respiratory epithelial cell nicotine receptors. Cannabinoids receptors have not been reported in respiratory epithelial cells (in skin they prevent cancer), and hence the DNA damage checkpoint mechanism should remain intact after prolonged cannabis exposure. Furthermore, nicotine promotes tumor angiogenesis whereas cannabis inhibits it. It is possible that as the cannabis-consuming population ages, the long-term consequences of smoking cannabis may become more similar to what is observed with tobacco. However, current knowledge does not suggest that cannabis smoke will have a carcinogenic potential comparable to that resulting from exposure to tobacco smoke. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1277837/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1277837/
    - fjabre 7y ago
      This. Thank you. Very insightful and to the point
      - Zod666 7y ago
        No problem. Pass it on, because there's an endless stream of people saying 'smoking is smoking!!! It's all the same!!! Period!!!' Maybe one day a collective light bulb will flicker and turn bright.
  - drawkbox 7y ago
    In your example you mention combustable fire created smoke, which campfires and cigarettes do. The reason why vaping is so prevalent and popular is there is actual science behind it. When you don't reach 450 degrees there is no combustion. Vaping is from high 100s to low 400s depending on the device and user setting. When something combusts it releases 20+ more carcinogens, when it doesn't it still isn't great for you but there are less carcinogens. I think everyone is pro less carcinogens right? Or should we stop regulating car exhaust because "smoke is carcinogenic", less of bad things is good. Vaping does that. Vape, or non combusted smoke, is also less invasive in public areas as non-combusted smoke doesn't have the tar and stickiness that really smells more intense. Vape smoke also does not contain paper like rolled cigarettes or joints, so there is less paper combusted materials also going in. No butts either that are fiberglass and a massive pollution problem. A huge problem with this issue is that it is vaping oils that is the area of attack, vaping bud or flower is much, much safer. They are attacking vaping as if it is all one thing from dry, flower to oils, to legal market and black market all in one term. It is more nuanced than that. Another aside, vaping removes all cigarette butts from pollution, it is one of the biggest problems in our oceans and drainage systems and they last forever. Vaping is a market solution that takes away cigarette butts and most vaping devices are reusable, both vaping and cigarettes still have packaging but eliminating butts is a huge win. No butts about it, vaping is safer and cleaner for the environment.
- javagram 7y ago
  Tobacco was smoked for hundreds of years too, that doesn’t make something healthy. Any type of smoke in the lungs is bad for them. Whenever marijuana is legalized at the federal level we will finally get the studies showing it, the only thing I can think of is maybe pot smokers don’t end up inhaling nearly as much smoke as an addicted cigarette smoker does.
  - fjabre 7y ago
    Yes but they are not all equally bad for you. This is not debatable. Its self evident. Cigarette smoke is not equal to pure tobacco smoke which is not equal to marijuana smoke. All these false equivalencies. Its irresponsible and flies in the face of reason. It is self evident that tobacco smoke and cigarette smoke in particular cause cancer. You dont have to be in medicine or read pubmed to know this. We have real world examples all over the place.
cmdshiftf4 7y ago
>As much as I support states refusing to wait for the feds to end our disastrous war on drugs policy, this is a reminder that unless we legalize and regulate marijuana at the federal level and make serious efforts to make the legal market work for everyone, there will continue to be a black market Canada legalized and regulated marijuana at the federal level over a year ago and yet 40% of users still prefer to get it from the black market. Vaping weed became very popular here also and there's no official source for THC vape cartridges. >That black market will continue to land people in jail Yes, breaking laws may result in incarceration. Even if you legalize it and regulate it, there will still be many people who'll roll the dice and try to undercut the market for their own gain.
- raydev 7y ago
  Based on what I've heard from others (I don't smoke), the black market in Canada still exists because of poor quality relative to cost, and low supply. Supposedly. Also, the black market is probably running off inertia due to existing supply, and how easy it is to grow plants as an individual. I don't think anyone expected the black market to disappear overnight. It's only been a year.
- resfirestar 7y ago
  I’m not familiar with the situation in Canada but here in California we have excessive taxes (counties and municipalities can layer on more tax beyond the state excise tax) and not enough dispensary licenses to meet demand (again, the fault of municipalities more than the state). The legal businesses that do exist are more likely to be run by green field entrepreneurs than people moving away from the black market. That’s what I meant by making the legal market work for everyone.

fjabre 7y ago

Nicotine is specifically harmful to lung tissue. You state that smoking weed has carcinogenic effects similar to tobacco which very obviously is not the case. They are completely different drugs with completely different side effects. Smoke from marijuana does not equal smoke from tobacco. I am not saying its without negative consequences but they are apples and oranges. Of course we have research on smoked flower. 1000s of years of research. Mankind has been smoking this plant longer than recorded history and Ill take that any day over the literature at pubmed. I would love for the feds to allow more research of course but its still schedule 1 so not much to be done.

threwawasy1228 7y ago
This kind of discussion really gets on my nerves. EVERY single type of smoke is carcinogenic. Period. There is a famous study of a sample of boy scout camp councilors/leaders who are non smokers having as much of an incidence of lung cancer as smokers. Why? Because they are constantly standing over campfires inhaling the smoke. There are similar studies about how bad incense is for your lungs. No smoke is safe for you to inhale.
- Zod666 7y ago
  In conclusion, while both tobacco and cannabis smoke have similar properties chemically, their pharmacological activities differ greatly. Components of cannabis smoke minimize some carcinogenic pathways whereas tobacco smoke enhances some. Both types of smoke contain carcinogens and particulate matter that promotes inflammatory immune responses that may enhance the carcinogenic effects of the smoke. However, cannabis typically down-regulates immunologically-generated free radical production by promoting a Th2 immune cytokine profile. Furthermore, THC inhibits the enzyme necessary to activate some of the carcinogens found in smoke. In contrast, tobacco smoke increases the likelihood of carcinogenesis by overcoming normal cellular checkpoint protective mechanisms through the activity of respiratory epithelial cell nicotine receptors. Cannabinoids receptors have not been reported in respiratory epithelial cells (in skin they prevent cancer), and hence the DNA damage checkpoint mechanism should remain intact after prolonged cannabis exposure. Furthermore, nicotine promotes tumor angiogenesis whereas cannabis inhibits it. It is possible that as the cannabis-consuming population ages, the long-term consequences of smoking cannabis may become more similar to what is observed with tobacco. However, current knowledge does not suggest that cannabis smoke will have a carcinogenic potential comparable to that resulting from exposure to tobacco smoke. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1277837/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1277837/
  - fjabre 7y ago
    This. Thank you. Very insightful and to the point
    - Zod666 7y ago
      No problem. Pass it on, because there's an endless stream of people saying 'smoking is smoking!!! It's all the same!!! Period!!!' Maybe one day a collective light bulb will flicker and turn bright.
- drawkbox 7y ago
  In your example you mention combustable fire created smoke, which campfires and cigarettes do. The reason why vaping is so prevalent and popular is there is actual science behind it. When you don't reach 450 degrees there is no combustion. Vaping is from high 100s to low 400s depending on the device and user setting. When something combusts it releases 20+ more carcinogens, when it doesn't it still isn't great for you but there are less carcinogens. I think everyone is pro less carcinogens right? Or should we stop regulating car exhaust because "smoke is carcinogenic", less of bad things is good. Vaping does that. Vape, or non combusted smoke, is also less invasive in public areas as non-combusted smoke doesn't have the tar and stickiness that really smells more intense. Vape smoke also does not contain paper like rolled cigarettes or joints, so there is less paper combusted materials also going in. No butts either that are fiberglass and a massive pollution problem. A huge problem with this issue is that it is vaping oils that is the area of attack, vaping bud or flower is much, much safer. They are attacking vaping as if it is all one thing from dry, flower to oils, to legal market and black market all in one term. It is more nuanced than that. Another aside, vaping removes all cigarette butts from pollution, it is one of the biggest problems in our oceans and drainage systems and they last forever. Vaping is a market solution that takes away cigarette butts and most vaping devices are reusable, both vaping and cigarettes still have packaging but eliminating butts is a huge win. No butts about it, vaping is safer and cleaner for the environment.
javagram 7y ago
Tobacco was smoked for hundreds of years too, that doesn’t make something healthy. Any type of smoke in the lungs is bad for them. Whenever marijuana is legalized at the federal level we will finally get the studies showing it, the only thing I can think of is maybe pot smokers don’t end up inhaling nearly as much smoke as an addicted cigarette smoker does.
- fjabre 7y ago
  Yes but they are not all equally bad for you. This is not debatable. Its self evident. Cigarette smoke is not equal to pure tobacco smoke which is not equal to marijuana smoke. All these false equivalencies. Its irresponsible and flies in the face of reason. It is self evident that tobacco smoke and cigarette smoke in particular cause cancer. You dont have to be in medicine or read pubmed to know this. We have real world examples all over the place.

cmdshiftf4 7y ago

>As much as I support states refusing to wait for the feds to end our disastrous war on drugs policy, this is a reminder that unless we legalize and regulate marijuana at the federal level and make serious efforts to make the legal market work for everyone, there will continue to be a black market Canada legalized and regulated marijuana at the federal level over a year ago and yet 40% of users still prefer to get it from the black market. Vaping weed became very popular here also and there's no official source for THC vape cartridges. >That black market will continue to land people in jail Yes, breaking laws may result in incarceration. Even if you legalize it and regulate it, there will still be many people who'll roll the dice and try to undercut the market for their own gain.

raydev 7y ago
Based on what I've heard from others (I don't smoke), the black market in Canada still exists because of poor quality relative to cost, and low supply. Supposedly. Also, the black market is probably running off inertia due to existing supply, and how easy it is to grow plants as an individual. I don't think anyone expected the black market to disappear overnight. It's only been a year.
resfirestar 7y ago
I’m not familiar with the situation in Canada but here in California we have excessive taxes (counties and municipalities can layer on more tax beyond the state excise tax) and not enough dispensary licenses to meet demand (again, the fault of municipalities more than the state). The legal businesses that do exist are more likely to be run by green field entrepreneurs than people moving away from the black market. That’s what I meant by making the legal market work for everyone.