8 ms·

We already have an abstraction for names: a text field. Trying to be more clever than that will break for someones name.

hirsin 7y ago
Which is great until the client asks for a friendly name (given name) identifier. GitHub uses name, we use first/last name. So we just shove the GitHub name in the first name spot and ask people to organize what looks right. Our partners suggested string.split(' '), which produced interesting results against the sample list of github users.
- clarry 7y ago
  A lot of software would be much better without stupid clients asking for the wrong things.
  - hirsin 7y ago
    Eh, I understand it. They want to put some name in the identity control in the header. Putting the full name in is guaranteed to go wrong. We might start asking for a nickname for that purpose.
    - gbear605 7y ago
      Why is the full name guaranteed to go wrong? A better assumption is that there is no reasonable nickname and you have to use their full name.
- dkersten 7y ago
  Use two fields: name and display name. Anything else will break for someone. In most cases where something asks for my name its really not even necessary and certainly not necessary to split it into first/last/display/friendly etc.
  - kd5bjo 7y ago
    This is not sufficient if you’re going to localize to languages other than English. In some languages, proper names get declined like other nouns and thus change spelling in different contexts.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - detaro 7y ago
      Are there examples where splitting it in First/Last name (or any other split) would help with that? It seems like that would always either be a problem or something to design around while localizing.
      - kd5bjo 7y ago
        It’s fundamentally language specific, so any comprehensive solution is going to need to interface with the localization system. Really, names should be keyed by (user, language, tag) triples, where the localization defines the acceptable tags based on language requirements. For example, a single person may need their name stored as: en:disp Eric is:disp:nf Eiríkur is:disp:þf Eirík is:disp:þgf Eiríki is:disp:ef Eiríks Designing a UI to collect this information is left as an exercise for the reader.
        dkersten 7y ago
        Since asking a user to enter every possible variant is unwieldy and without doing so, the problem is unsolvable, I’ll stick with my original suggestion of using a single field. Yes, some names will break, but far fewer than if first and last names are required.
- a-priori 7y ago
  You're assuming that you're 'friendly' enough with your users that they want you to use their given name.
  - tripzilch 7y ago
    Oh yeah that touches a nerve. I hate it when I have filled in my name and email somewhere, maybe I forgot doing it, and I receive a newsletter, which opens with and greets me with just my first name. No. Just because I signed up for your mailinglist doesn't mean we're on a first name basis! I hardly even remember your business exists, do you remember me? Anything else about me except my email and my full name, from which you deduced my first name? Then let's not pretend we're buddies. This of course depends on how "friendly" I'm willing to be with said business. Which differs if it's an Etsy store, ordering food online, my bank, insurance, etc. I especially hate it when the news letter is in fact 99% ads and promo babble, but has this 1% of useful info that I want to be kept up to date on. We're not close, I'm letting you spam my inbox, call me "your grace" or something. Can you actually go wrong with just using someone's full name, and erring on the side of being a tad too formal? Is this just a problem with marketing companies that want to "connect" and become "buddies"?
naniwaduni 7y ago
This already breaks names which inflect.
- andai 7y ago
  What’s this? A name that changes when you are talking to someone directly? In some Slavic languages this happens.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    Usually the name would change according to the full rules of noun inflection in whatever language. In Latin, a noun has 6 cases, of which vocative (indicating direct address to the noun) is one.
    - thefringthing 7y ago
      Irish has a vocative case that can modify names, and is an official language of a UN member state.
- dkersten 7y ago
  Which isn’t really a problem you can solve. If names change in the context that they’re used, it will always be broken, so why break more names by trying to be clever?
  - sargram01 7y ago
    Actually I think it should be ok, because you’d enter the name in the nomative case and then when you write it on the screen you’d declinate it based on the language you’re displaying it in, which would be the same for every name regardless of its origin.
    - Piskvorrr 7y ago
      Tried that once. Horrible, terrible, no good idea. (The only rule you can be sure of is "there are countless exceptions, and exceptions from the exceptions", everything else is a minefield in a quicksand) Asking for "how should we address you" is far easier, even if a few users fill in "Your Galactic Imperial Majesty".

hirsin 7y ago

Which is great until the client asks for a friendly name (given name) identifier. GitHub uses name, we use first/last name. So we just shove the GitHub name in the first name spot and ask people to organize what looks right. Our partners suggested string.split(' '), which produced interesting results against the sample list of github users.

clarry 7y ago
A lot of software would be much better without stupid clients asking for the wrong things.
- hirsin 7y ago
  Eh, I understand it. They want to put some name in the identity control in the header. Putting the full name in is guaranteed to go wrong. We might start asking for a nickname for that purpose.
  - gbear605 7y ago
    Why is the full name guaranteed to go wrong? A better assumption is that there is no reasonable nickname and you have to use their full name.
dkersten 7y ago
Use two fields: name and display name. Anything else will break for someone. In most cases where something asks for my name its really not even necessary and certainly not necessary to split it into first/last/display/friendly etc.
- kd5bjo 7y ago
  This is not sufficient if you’re going to localize to languages other than English. In some languages, proper names get declined like other nouns and thus change spelling in different contexts.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - detaro 7y ago
    Are there examples where splitting it in First/Last name (or any other split) would help with that? It seems like that would always either be a problem or something to design around while localizing.
    - kd5bjo 7y ago
      It’s fundamentally language specific, so any comprehensive solution is going to need to interface with the localization system. Really, names should be keyed by (user, language, tag) triples, where the localization defines the acceptable tags based on language requirements. For example, a single person may need their name stored as: en:disp Eric is:disp:nf Eiríkur is:disp:þf Eirík is:disp:þgf Eiríki is:disp:ef Eiríks Designing a UI to collect this information is left as an exercise for the reader.
      - dkersten 7y ago
        Since asking a user to enter every possible variant is unwieldy and without doing so, the problem is unsolvable, I’ll stick with my original suggestion of using a single field. Yes, some names will break, but far fewer than if first and last names are required.
a-priori 7y ago
You're assuming that you're 'friendly' enough with your users that they want you to use their given name.
- tripzilch 7y ago
  Oh yeah that touches a nerve. I hate it when I have filled in my name and email somewhere, maybe I forgot doing it, and I receive a newsletter, which opens with and greets me with just my first name. No. Just because I signed up for your mailinglist doesn't mean we're on a first name basis! I hardly even remember your business exists, do you remember me? Anything else about me except my email and my full name, from which you deduced my first name? Then let's not pretend we're buddies. This of course depends on how "friendly" I'm willing to be with said business. Which differs if it's an Etsy store, ordering food online, my bank, insurance, etc. I especially hate it when the news letter is in fact 99% ads and promo babble, but has this 1% of useful info that I want to be kept up to date on. We're not close, I'm letting you spam my inbox, call me "your grace" or something. Can you actually go wrong with just using someone's full name, and erring on the side of being a tad too formal? Is this just a problem with marketing companies that want to "connect" and become "buddies"?

naniwaduni 7y ago

This already breaks names which inflect.

andai 7y ago
What’s this? A name that changes when you are talking to someone directly? In some Slavic languages this happens.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  Usually the name would change according to the full rules of noun inflection in whatever language. In Latin, a noun has 6 cases, of which vocative (indicating direct address to the noun) is one.
  - thefringthing 7y ago
    Irish has a vocative case that can modify names, and is an official language of a UN member state.
dkersten 7y ago
Which isn’t really a problem you can solve. If names change in the context that they’re used, it will always be broken, so why break more names by trying to be clever?
- sargram01 7y ago
  Actually I think it should be ok, because you’d enter the name in the nomative case and then when you write it on the screen you’d declinate it based on the language you’re displaying it in, which would be the same for every name regardless of its origin.
  - Piskvorrr 7y ago
    Tried that once. Horrible, terrible, no good idea. (The only rule you can be sure of is "there are countless exceptions, and exceptions from the exceptions", everything else is a minefield in a quicksand) Asking for "how should we address you" is far easier, even if a few users fill in "Your Galactic Imperial Majesty".