3 ms·

Nicorette is over the counter. And I don't understand the logic that harm reduction devices/drugs should be less available than the more dangerous drugs...

atlasunshrugged 7y ago
And Chantix which was the example I used is prescription only But my broader point was that if your argument is that vaping is a method to quit smoking, then it should be regulated or proved as such and not sold like other tobacco products or with misleading messaging. Currently IQOS (Philip Morris International via Altria in the US market) is trying to get this signoff from the FDA I think, but just for marketing purposes (and yes, this is a different product category than vaping but still in the 'novel' tobacco replacement category) Edit Addition: I should just mention I'm more playing devils advocate on both sides of this as frankly I'm still trying to decide on my belief in this argument. I've been researching tobacco control for the last few months as part of a project and there are lots of valid arguments that many of the major vape companies and products are now owned by tobacco companies which have a history of being disingenuous at best and actively harmful/criminal at worst and so novel products like vapes should just be not trusted or even outlawed until the effects are known. But on the other side, available data so far does show that vapes generally are less harmful than cigarettes, so if someone is using it as a device to switch and that's the only thing that's an option for them (rather than quitting cold turkey) then it's not good to limit that option. But the math starts getting really fuzzy if you think about the number of new 'users' vaping and novel products could theoretically attract to a product that while probably not as harmful as cigarettes, isn't as good as not using anything at all https://www.chantix.com/faqs#how-do-i-get-chantix https://www.chantix.com/faqs#how-do-i-get-chantix
- executive 7y ago
  Chantix sounds terrifying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hp_y0wDFz0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hp_y0wDFz0
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    It's a great example of a drug that absolutely should be prescription. But I'd you don't get the terrible side effects, and it helps you to quit, it's definitely worth taking it health-wise.
  - atlasunshrugged 7y ago
    Ah sorry for not being clearer, I just was talking about Chantix in particular being something that required a prescription But I'm actually not positive that it's proven it helps you quit. Here's an excerpt from a paper I was reading the other day "The study [21] of the effect of "real world" ENDS use on the population quit rates among 1284 U.S. adult smokers showed that the adjusted odds of quitting smoking were lower for those that used ENDS at baseline (9.4%) compared to smokers who did not use ENDS (18.9%). Smokers who used ENDS daily at some point during the study period were also less likely to quit smoking than nonusers (AOR = 0.17)." My notes are kind of messy but I think it's from this meta analysis http://documents.worldbank.org/curated/en/356561555100066200/pdf/E-Cigarettes-Use-and-Taxation.pdf http://documents.worldbank.org/curated/en/356561555100066200... I actually am a bit confused on the NHS' stance actually - they came out strong on this but many other agencies like the WHO seem to be taking much more of a wait and see approach
- JamesBarney 7y ago
  Sorry I wasn't arguing chantix didn't require a prescription, only the rule "all quitting aids are prescribed" wasn't true. I also don't understand why if something helps you quit smoking we should make it less available? If it help people quit smoking we should make it more available, and if it doesn't then make it less. The UK royal academy of physicians and equivalent of nih think vaping probably has 5% of the risks of smoking. That means to break even we would need ~20 new vapers for every smoker who switches to vaping. And I don't think there is any way to look at the data and conclude there are 20 times as many new vapers as smokers who switched.

atlasunshrugged 7y ago

And Chantix which was the example I used is prescription only But my broader point was that if your argument is that vaping is a method to quit smoking, then it should be regulated or proved as such and not sold like other tobacco products or with misleading messaging. Currently IQOS (Philip Morris International via Altria in the US market) is trying to get this signoff from the FDA I think, but just for marketing purposes (and yes, this is a different product category than vaping but still in the 'novel' tobacco replacement category) Edit Addition: I should just mention I'm more playing devils advocate on both sides of this as frankly I'm still trying to decide on my belief in this argument. I've been researching tobacco control for the last few months as part of a project and there are lots of valid arguments that many of the major vape companies and products are now owned by tobacco companies which have a history of being disingenuous at best and actively harmful/criminal at worst and so novel products like vapes should just be not trusted or even outlawed until the effects are known. But on the other side, available data so far does show that vapes generally are less harmful than cigarettes, so if someone is using it as a device to switch and that's the only thing that's an option for them (rather than quitting cold turkey) then it's not good to limit that option. But the math starts getting really fuzzy if you think about the number of new 'users' vaping and novel products could theoretically attract to a product that while probably not as harmful as cigarettes, isn't as good as not using anything at all https://www.chantix.com/faqs#how-do-i-get-chantix https://www.chantix.com/faqs#how-do-i-get-chantix

executive 7y ago
Chantix sounds terrifying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hp_y0wDFz0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hp_y0wDFz0
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  It's a great example of a drug that absolutely should be prescription. But I'd you don't get the terrible side effects, and it helps you to quit, it's definitely worth taking it health-wise.
- atlasunshrugged 7y ago
  Ah sorry for not being clearer, I just was talking about Chantix in particular being something that required a prescription But I'm actually not positive that it's proven it helps you quit. Here's an excerpt from a paper I was reading the other day "The study [21] of the effect of "real world" ENDS use on the population quit rates among 1284 U.S. adult smokers showed that the adjusted odds of quitting smoking were lower for those that used ENDS at baseline (9.4%) compared to smokers who did not use ENDS (18.9%). Smokers who used ENDS daily at some point during the study period were also less likely to quit smoking than nonusers (AOR = 0.17)." My notes are kind of messy but I think it's from this meta analysis http://documents.worldbank.org/curated/en/356561555100066200/pdf/E-Cigarettes-Use-and-Taxation.pdf http://documents.worldbank.org/curated/en/356561555100066200... I actually am a bit confused on the NHS' stance actually - they came out strong on this but many other agencies like the WHO seem to be taking much more of a wait and see approach
JamesBarney 7y ago
Sorry I wasn't arguing chantix didn't require a prescription, only the rule "all quitting aids are prescribed" wasn't true. I also don't understand why if something helps you quit smoking we should make it less available? If it help people quit smoking we should make it more available, and if it doesn't then make it less. The UK royal academy of physicians and equivalent of nih think vaping probably has 5% of the risks of smoking. That means to break even we would need ~20 new vapers for every smoker who switches to vaping. And I don't think there is any way to look at the data and conclude there are 20 times as many new vapers as smokers who switched.