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Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines
- jcims 7y agoThey should work with the post office to accept returns. I live ten miles away from the closest library. It never makes sense to drive there solely to return a book and I work from home 95% of the time, so I’m rarely there by chance. As a result, i never go to the library. If i could chuck the book into my mailbox to return it I’d stop by more often.
- kylek 7y agoI wonder if a "DVD-era Netflix-style" library could be a thing? i.e. a paid-postage return envelope included when you check a book out. (I'm guessing the physical size of a DVD is the only thing that made that trick viable for netflix)
- jcims 7y agoPossibly. My thinking with the post office is that they would only work with the local library system, and to keep costs down even more could even just collect the books at the post office and someone from the library would collect them. Lots of logistics and not very likely but I know it would remove my primary impediment to using the local library.
- loeg 7y ago> (I'm guessing the physical size of a DVD is the only thing that made that trick viable for netflix) That and the durable plastic cases. You could do this for small paperbacks in padded mailers, but it'd wear them down faster than they already wear.
- siruncledrew 7y agoIt's a good idea in theory. Receive books in the mail, return books in the mail. I imagine the main cost-factor is size/weight of the books. The post office having to deliver an encyclopedia would be more costly than delivering a small paperback. Maybe there's a way to work around that. It would at least encourage the readership of physical books (and maybe books in general). I don't go to to the library either, and really don't read books that much, but it certainly would be interesting to have the capacity to see reading materials online and have them mailed to me. Then again, if they are currently available for free at the library today, I suppose there's only so many excuses to make for my own laziness.
- reaperducer 7y agoI imagine the main cost-factor is size/weight of the books. Not really. Fourth class mail used to be called "book rate." It's slow, but it's super cheap, and was established in 1879 to encourage reading and literacy. I think a better innovation would be for one of the SV "tech" delivery companies to team up with local libraries to deliver and retrieve books from people in their offices.
- rubidium 7y agoAnd steal all their data and be generally aweful vs the relative “we just pass the mail” of the USPS. No thanks.
- swimfar 7y agoBook rate is not what it costs the USPS to ship books, it's what it costs for an individual to ship books. So it's still possible that it's too expensive to make sense.
- baddox 7y agoIf only there was a way to “ship” some representation of a book from one location to another using very little energy and space.
- altmind 7y agoBy the way, USPS got a separate rate for books https://faq.usps.com/s/article/What-is-Media-Mail-Book-Rate https://faq.usps.com/s/article/What-is-Media-Mail-Book-Rate
- stefap2 7y agoLooks like it is a thing in some libraries: https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=book+by+mail+library https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=book+by...
- hvidgaard 7y agoIn my childhood my city had a "bookbus" driving around to the outskirts of the city so people didn't have to travel to the main library. You could pick up reservations, browse through a selection, and return books. It was a brilliant concept, and I was waiting for it faithfully every week. If I wasn't there the librarian/driver would ask the next week what I had been doing since I didn't turn up. He was a kind man and often had recommendations for me. I owe that man a lot for the escape he provided for a child from a troubled home. Many years ago, as a teenager, I went down to the main library to return some books I had borrowed. I knew I was late and I knew I had to pay a fee because of it, but I'd rather pay the fees with my savings than lose access to the library. The librarian at the desk is the same man that has been driving the bus for as long as I can remember. He takes the books, taps at the keyboard a bit, hand me my receipt, smiles and wish me a good day. I ponder for a few seconds about the late fees, but decide against just walking away - I really don't want it to somehow result in suspending my card. So I tell him that I believe there is some late fees that I need to pay. His takes off his glasses and his face turns serious and say "Someone that has been visiting my bookbus since he was about this high (signaling around waist), don't have to pay just because his miss the return date by a week. You returned them, that's what matters". I still think about this, and if he is still alive I wish I could somehow tell him this story. He was passionate about his job and he made a difference.
- jcims 7y agoWow, that's a powerful story.
- tedunangst 7y agoChicago made you pay the fine when you returned the book? You can't just drop it in the return and pay the fine later when you want to check out another book?
- datashow 7y agoYes, you see surge of returns at the moment. But I would expect there will be a dramatic increase of overdues as a terrible long term effect.
- Spooky23 7y agoMy library did this a couple of years ago and made a big production about how progressive they were. Instead of a fine with a cap ($5 iirc), they suspend your card.
- chrischen 7y agoBetween not paying fines and not paying fines, of course people are going to choose to not pay fines.
- geofft 7y agoBut that's not the choice, the choice is between paying the fine or being unable to use the library. The whole idea behind fines is that 1) imposing fines motivates people to return books on time and 2) disabling future borrowing motivates people to pay the fine, thereby making the motivation from 1 actually work. I don't think it's an "of course" level of obviousness that this scheme doesn't work in practice—otherwise libraries would have abandoned fines long ago.
- spullara 7y agoSo we know how much the library was worth to them now. Instead they should offer a subscription service that is free as long as you have fewer than N books checked out.
- baddox 7y agoBut according to your logic, you would also oppose the first library doing this by making the same claim: that if it were obvious, it would have happened long ago. Maybe it’s the case that the library has new information and/or is committed to a new or reinvigorated mission, and that this decision is an obvious step toward accomplishing that mission.
- baddox 7y agoAnd for the library, the choice was between not collecting fines and not getting the books back, or not collecting fines and getting the books back. So even in a model where the library is being run as a business, this is a better outcome. But, in a crazy model where the goal of the library is to provide access to books for free, this new system seems like an even bigger improvement!
- ComputerGuru 7y agoI honestly think it is the novelty of suddenly not having fines rather than the actual not having of fines. IMHO (most) people don’t not return books when they’re a day or a week late because of fines. Ultimately, I believe it’s too early to draw any conclusions beyond observing the number of books returned for now. It will certainly be interesting to see where the steady state will wind up, though. (I’m a CPL member.)
- djmips 7y ago(most) p̶eople ̶d̶o̶n̶’̶t̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶r̶e̶t̶u̶r̶n̶ ̶b̶o̶o̶k̶s̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶’̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶d̶a̶y̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶a̶ ̶w̶e̶e̶k̶ ̶l̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶b̶e̶c̶a̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶f̶i̶n̶e̶s̶.̶ Even with fines, (most) people return books when they’re a day or a week late. FTFY Coding standards. ;-)
- save_ferris 7y agoI tend to agree. Many municipalities offer an annual discount day for folks who have outstanding toll road charges that aren't worth sending to collections. Voluntary payment skyrockets during these kinds of things.
- vanniv 7y agoMy state instead just automatically suspends your license and sends you a traffic ticket (of about $350) if you have any outstanding toll charge after 90 days.
- donw 7y agoAgreed that more data is required to draw any sort of conclusion from this. That said, my understanding of behavioral therapy is that you reward desired behaviors and ignore unwanted behaviors. Punishment is also on the table for flagrant violation of the rules, but it needs to be applied equally and immediately. With that in mind, how does the library system reward good actors -- those that return books on-time, that sort of thing? It's really hard to shape behavior when you have a surplus of sticks and a notable lack of carrots.
- 7y ago
- reaperducer 7y agoI think what's being missed in the discussion on HN is the reason CPL eliminated fines. It's not about the money, nor is it about getting the books back. It's to improve access to the library system. CPL did a study of who held the cards with suspended privileges because of late fees, and found out that the vast majority were people in poor neighborhoods, and of those the vast majority were children. Now with the new rules it opens up book borrowing again to tens of thousands of people who need it most. /CPL cardholder.
- jcims 7y agoInteresting. I noted below that the libraries could work with the post office to get books back efficiently, but based on this they should probably start with school libraries instead.
- consp 7y agoThe "library" in my school (sub 13 years old, the library was a few bookcases at best for a school of ~120 kids) had books from the central library in the town. You could look up a book, reserve it and it would be delivered next week if available (no internet then, so it was a computer with the book list and reservation cards you had to fill in). If it was not available you would get a notice when it would arrive. Or you took your bike and drove the 5km but as a small kid that is not always an option and you'd have to get your parents to bring or help you get there. You could return all books there even if you picked them up elsewhere in the same library system. It's sort of a postal system I guess. It didn't get used too often, but it was a nice addition to the rotating book supply that was otherwise available. And it was also a nice learning experience for us small kids about how the libraries worked and we got to use computers.
- 60654 7y agoThis seems like an excellent move on the part of the library system and mayor's office. I don't have a horse in this race (no late books in a long time) but it's great to see this being implemented for everybody's benefit.
- spullara 7y agoNetflix vs Blockbuster
- SubiculumCode 7y agoMany libraries have a defined late-fee (e.g., $.50/day, regardless of whether the book is an expensive full color monster, or a children's book. Anyone here with children will probably agree that when you check out books for your little children, you are getting not one but 10 (or more) children's books. This discourages families from checking out books for their children, because even a few days late on 10 children's books starts to add up fast!
- knocte 7y agoIf no fines, what prevents the people from taking the books and not return them again? Wanting to borrow new books? Ah, fair enough. (Just putting this out loud for people which didn't reach this conclusion yet, it took me a while.) PS: Maybe the real way to fix this is paying a deposit upfront when becoming a member of the library, which is not high price, just the cost of an average book. You'd get this deposit when you decide to stop being a member.
- sircastor 7y agoPeople tend to behave differently with libraries than typical economics might suggest. People view the library as a shared resource, something the community owns together. The resistance to returning the borrowed items more often comes from embarrassment or shame than it does entitlement or attempted theft.
- usrusr 7y agoI fully agree. If they could somehow reframe the fine into a positive contribution they would not have to resort to short term hacks [0] like zeroing the fine. How could that reframing work? Instead of free limited time lending plus optional fine after n days, make it a rental, but with the first n days free. If you return on time that's fine, but you're a freeloader then. Those who take their time with the books are the true supporters. Nobody will perpetually postpone returning because they feel uneasy about admitting wrongdoing (no matter how small). [0] I believe it's only short term because bad habits usually take time to develop. Long term, the negatives will outweigh the positives. The person who would systematically take advantage of zero fine doesn't use the library, yet.
- hombre_fatal 7y ago> You'd get this deposit when you decide to stop being a member. Now people will cancel their membership when they need their $15 back in fast cash. Probably the people who could use the library the most.
- zarq 7y ago
- nbanks 7y agoPresuming you still can't borrow a new book if you have overdue books at home, and you still have to pay for lost books, this seems reasonable. It reminds me of the old-school netflix DVD rental system where you can keep a movie as long as you want, but can't get a new one until you return the previous one. It also reminds me of being able to take out books for 3-5 months at a time as a grad student--it was so much nicer than undergrad!
- andrewstuart 7y agoMakes sense. Send a reminder instead of a fine notice. "Return our book and it will cost you $X. Keep it forever and it will cost you nothing". That's a poor mechanic.
- devy 7y agoMany parents know one of the good parenting rules is that incentivizing good behaviors works better than punishment for bad behaviors. This is another case where it applies to human behavior beyond children.
- pithymaxim 7y agoFor those interested in the actual policy: > [C]hecked-out books automatically will renew as many as 15 times, as long as no one else places a hold on them...Items will be marked as "lost" and accounts will be charged a replacement fee one week after the last due date, but the charge will be cleared if the item is returned https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-library-fines-eliminated-20190930-liidgxi62nb4tnnmfmnlphykja-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-chicago-libr... Curious to see some library data guru openly analyze the consequences...
- quotemstr 7y agoIt's weird that in an era of zero-cost digital availability of practically everything mankind has ever produced we still care about the details of distributing printed-out copies of books. Digital distribution has zero marginal cost and practically everyone has a device capable of reading the entire archive of humanity. Why do we still care about books per se?
- perseaamericana 7y agoFirst of all, if you look up Ebook library licensing fee, you'll see the crazy clusterfuck of ridiculous charges, so it's no where near "zero marginal cost". It should be, but it isn't. Secondly, speaking as someone who is fully on-board on ebooks, for some books, such as large reference books, design/photography books and children books, physical books are still the way to go. Plus extended reading on a tiny mobile phone is not feasible for many people, and not everyone can afford a large screen device for reading.
- timwaagh 7y agoBecause of tradition and nostalgia. Also i find the experience slightly better. But you are right: we don't need libraries anymore. We might need bookstores for nostalgic rich people who can still afford the space for a personal library.
- rhinoceraptor 7y agoIt's a lot harder to focus on reading a book when you can just jump over to youtube instead.
- cryptozeus 7y agoSome of the comments here are surprising. Imo people who come to library to read books want to be a good member of the library. By assuming they will stop returning books due to no fees is just assuming worst of them. I was surprised when my county in California decided to get rid of all the fees. I had 5 books due and all my fees were forgiven. I donated way more to the library just because of this change. I was worried that how will they now afford to run the library effectively without fees. I guess people who can afford to give donations should do that and take the financial load out of the people who cannot afford. There is something freeing about this. Education and knowledge should really be free for all.
- tfha 7y agoFees are not a significant part of a libraries revenue
- cryptozeus 7y agoYeh I guess that is why it was easy for them to experiment with it.
- konschubert 7y agoI agree that most want to be a good member of the library, but what do you do about a few bad actors? (I haven't read the policy but I guess there must still be some restrictions to prevent abuse.)
- naniwaduni 7y agoYou buy replacements. It's not fundamentally different from books getting generally worn out. Lending limits on categories of items effectively upper bound the cost of each individual bad actor to not prohibitively expensive.
- jakeogh 7y agoAlso I bet they deny check out until late's are retured, maybe with some buffer for lost or cant return it yet but will. I dont see it mentioned in the article. Smart move imho. Bravo CPL. I bet the same result happens elsewhere independent of assumptions about desire to pay.
- brudgers 7y agoAbout five or six years ago, my local library eliminated fines for overdue books. I suspect it paid for itself pretty quickly based on my use. Prior to eliminating fines, I'd renew by email. Staff would process the email into the system. Or I wouldn't renew by email, and then staff would handle my payment next time I checked out. At ten cents a day, odds were staff would break a bill. Staff would write a receipt and enter stuff in the computer system. Manual work for a few cents. Manual work that didn't help anyone use the library. Manual work that didn't make the library better. Manual work that wasn't worth doing. It was petty work involving petty cash. Paying fines didn't make anyone happy. Collecting fines didn't make staff happy. The fines were just inertia. Fines never motivated me to return books on time. What motivated me to return books on time was believing that returning books on time was good for the library. That didn't change when fines went away.
- beefsack 7y agoWe did this recently in Canberra too, to similar effect[1]. Apparently it is becoming quite common in a growing number of cities. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/01/canberras-libraries-join-nationwide-trend-of-scrapping-fines-for-late-books https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/01/canbe...
- woadwarrior01 7y agoThe public libraries in Ireland decided to eliminate fines early this year and it seems to have had the opposite effect. In some cases, people don’t seem to return books at all. I’d placed a hold on a book, a couple of months ago and it looks like the people who’d borrowed the only two copies of the book in the system haven’t returned it in over 8 months now. I‘d initially thought that eliminating fines was a great idea, but since then I’ve changed my opinions on it. Perhaps a better way to go about it would be to have a month (or 3 months) long jubilee when people could return the books they haven’t returned in years without any penalties and then switch over to a more reasonable and less punitive fine structure. Having zero fines implies that there will always be people who exploit the system. Lower but non-zero fines will be closer to the optima, IMO.
- padraic7a 7y agoI don't think you're correct here. In my own (anecdotal) exerience it seems to me that returns are up. In fairness books got lost or borrowers failed to return them before the change to abolish fines as well. Did you speak to a member of staff and ask for a replacement book to be purchased?
- woadwarrior01 7y agoI did speak to one of the librarians at my local library and I'll be writing them a letter detailing my suggestions, soon. Based on the comments here, I suspect a decent middle ground of a solution would be to not lend books to people who have books overdue. That'd probably fly better than re-introducing fines. The public library system here Ireland is by far the best I've seen, and it's a bit discouraging to see people exploit a public good.
- louhike 7y agoYou base your opinions on your own individual experience, which proves nothing for the whole system.
- mrfredward 7y ago
- supernova87a 7y agoWell, of course this is because everyone who had weeks/months of fines built up on overdue books is taking the opportunity to turn them in while they can with no penalty. Whether a library that starts with a no-fine policy can sustain that is highly doubtful. What are we going to resort to, the librarian calling each borrower and asking nicely? Maybe we should eliminate penalties for everything in life, because they're discriminatory or inequitable towards people who can't afford them. Remove speeding tickets, late fees for unpaid taxes, etc. In fact, we should just remove prices for everything -- prices tend to reduce access to everything and make things inequitable!
- wazoox 7y agoThere are many similar cases: when some school started fining late parents, more parents came in even later (because, after all, they paid to get their children cared for, so why bother?). It's a well known effect. Fines often reduce the feeling of responsibility.
- PeterisP 7y agoOur local library has a monthly "amnesty day" where you can return books and get new ones with the late fees waived. So if the fees are a problem for you, you come on that particular day; but if you're just late and want a different book now, then you pay a dollar or so.
- Chris2048 7y agoAll books are not equal; some are worth little (or negative; lots of old books are destroyed), some are worth a lot; which are we talking about here?
- TurkishPoptart 7y agoSame thing is happening for Seattle public libraries starting Jan 1.