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Interesting, I find the opposite conclusion. I think it mostly has to do with other people's insecurities. If I say something like, "veganism is unhealthy" (be

• Accacin 7y ago
  Maybe because you're mentioning one group specifically. Any diet can be unhealthy. The fact that Vegans need to be a bit more careful doesn't make it inherently more unhealthy.
  • tomp 7y ago
    No, it's just an example. Probably a poor example. In reality I don't often meet vegans, but people get upset for all kinds of reasons / statements, most commonly for political ones which are to be avoided on HN (and real life) (and are quite easy to avoid, if you want to). Another (non-political) one that comes up fairly often, is that I don't think it's reasonable to congratulate people when they decide to get married... it's a decision after all, nothing to do with achievement and/or luck (for most people I know at least, who aren't extremely lonely to the extent that finding anyone that tolerates them is an achievement... in which case, "congratulations" would be more in order), and if anything, they should be warned (as many marriages end in failure). But if you say that, you're the asshole.
    • ibeckermayer 7y ago
      You and I would be friends if we met irl
    • tjr225 7y ago
      I truly mean no offense but you kind of sound like an asshole. I think these are perfectly acceptable thoughts to have but in the context of interpersonal relationships and society as a whole, these statements just seem confrontational and unnecessary.
      • deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      • pdimitar 7y ago
        > I truly mean no offense but you kind of sound like an asshole. I’m curious if you will elaborate. What your parent commenter said about failing marriages is factual and is supported by statistics —- for decades. You saying that somebody _seems_ to be an asshole however, I see nothing factual about that statement. Would you try expanding on your position?
        • tjr225 7y ago
          What I'm saying has nothing to do with whether something is factual or not. We say congratulations to people when they get engaged because it is nice to do so.
        • rcoveson 7y ago
          Nobody's disagreeing with the statistics, they're disagreeing that statistical likelihood of success is a good criteria for determining whether to congratulate somebody on something or not. I suspect that if we used that criteria, we'd end up reinforcing a lot of existing trends. For example, my daughter gets into a computer science program, but I know that most women don't end up getting jobs in that field, so I withhold congratulations. Why are you yelling? I'm right! I'm backed by decades of statistics.
        • peteradio 7y ago
  • walterstucco666 7y ago
    > Any diet can be unhealthy Yes, exactly, so if I say "eating candies is unhealthy" I don't think there's gonna be any group jumping at my throat. Maybe is because candy lovers are not insecure cultists. They know it's a matter of taste and personal belief, not something with a more profound meaning.
• ChristianBundy 7y ago
  > I think it mostly has to do with other people's insecurities. If I say something like, "veganism is unhealthy" (because of lack of B12... yes I'm aware there are nuances), some vegans interpret that as a statement of opinion, rather than a statement of fact, or even as an attack on their lifestyle choices, because they are so involved with their egos. I'll bite. It's true that a vegan diet can be unhealthy, and that it's wise to supplement with B12, but that doesn't mean a vegan diet is unhealthy. This is like saying "an omnivorous diet is unhealthy because you don't eat enough vegetables". Sure, some people with omnivorous diets need to eat more vegetables, but that's not true of all people who eat omnivorous diets. I'm not sure whether you would benefit from increasing your precision or accuracy, but the "veganism is unhealthy" line is plain wrong.
  • CoolGuySteve 7y ago
    You know, when it comes to "Being kind" on hnews, I have the least patience for these pedantic/off-topic replies that completely distract from the central thesis of the parent post. In this case, the vegan stuff was an example and you know it, but felt it appropriate to waste our time with your reply anyways. I find these kinds of posts so, so, so tiring. The only saving grace is that the collapse thread button is so useful.
    • hombre_fatal 7y ago
      Eh, the upstream comment used bogus incendiary flamebait as an "example" so yes, people are going to reply to it. They might as well have gone with "the earth is flat". It's a show-stopper that challenges the veracity of the rest of their post. They aren't being "right but rude" when they are wrong about such a basic statement. For example, B12 is in meat because animals are supplemented with it, like cobalt added to their feed. Humans can supplement directly. It's like thinking you have to drink vitamin D fortified milk or iodine fortified salt to get vitamin D and iodine, and then asserting people who don't consume either must be unhealthy.
      • CoolGuySteve 7y ago
• jayd16 7y ago
  You seem like the prime example of someone who has to win the conversation. Purposefully harsh wordings that require parenthesized nuance even here are hardly the listeners fault. If there's a breakdown in communication because you're being pithy and sharp that's a problem you can choose to fix.
• esotericn 7y ago
  Imagine that I start off a conversation with you along the lines of 'meat is murder', or 'taxation is theft'. Both of those statements have some element of truth to them, but they're obviously incendiary, as is your 'veganism is unhealthy'. For the most part it sounds like you're just lacking tact. I used to be that guy too. Probably still am, to some extent.
  • walterstucco666 7y ago
    > Both of those statements have some element of truth to them, No, they don't. They are supercharged propaganda. > but they're obviously incendiary, as is your 'veganism is unhealthy'. Not at all. Saying veganism is unhealthy is stating an opinion shared by many nutrition expert, it says nothing about vegans, it is just what it is. meat is murder contains a judgement: if meat is murder, you are a murderer, if taxation is theft, who collects taxes is a thief. I can accept "you eat corpses" because it's true, I don't eat animals alive, they are already dead when I eat them, but it is also imprecise, because I eat just bits of the corpses, not the entire carcass.
    • deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    • Lewton 7y ago
      > Saying veganism is unhealthy is stating an opinion shared by many nutrition expert, But also an opinion disagreed with by many nutrition experts
      • walterstucco666 7y ago
        Yes, a minority of them share the same opinion. A majority of them studied and proved its unhealthy effects. Unless you wanna say that every opinion counts, no matter the opinion, we can safely assume that being vegan is like drinking or having unprotected sex or speeding. It won't probably kill you, it will even improve life for some, but it's not something one should take lightly like "it has no effects".
• Boxxed 7y ago
  When you say things like, "Veganism is unhealthy," the issue is that it simply leaves no room in the conversation for the other person. Even just a slight change ("I understand that veganism is unhealthy") will almost certainly elicit a different response. If you feel like you're often pushing people's buttons to the point of censoring yourself, maybe take a step back and see if you can communicate more kindly.
  • walterstucco666 7y ago
    > "Veganism is unhealthy," the issue is that it simply leaves no room in the conversation for the other person. Smoking is unhealthy, there's no possible conversation. It is, if you prefer to smoke, it's your choice, no amount of reasoning is gonna change that. Disclaimer: I'm a smoker, a not very involved one, but still one.
    • perl4ever 7y ago
      Smoking (or other forms of nicotine administration) is self-medication for a significant portion of the population, due to the not-completely-understood action of nicotinic receptors in the brain... I think it's particularly harmful and sad to say there's no possible conversation about something when you are of two minds yourself!
      • walterstucco666 7y ago
        > Smoking (or other forms of nicotine administration) is self-medication for a significant portion of the population It is believed to be, but it isn't. We could make the same argument for alcohol or even heroin, that stop a cough and relieves from physical pain. > I think it's particularly harmful and sad to say there's no possible conversation As a smoker, there is no possible conversation on the fact that smoking kills, cigarettes are killers, no matter the benefits one can take out of them, they are "responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure. This is about one in five deaths annually, or 1,300 deaths every day. On average, smokers die 10 years earlier than nonsmokers" This is a fact that can only be acknowledged as true, even though personally many people decide to ignore this fact and smoke anyway (including myself). But we smokers are simply wrong.
• jakelazaroff 7y ago
  But “veganism is unhealthy” is an opinion. Your parenthetical about the lack of B12 indicates that you know this, and that the topic is more nuanced. If you don’t normally qualify that statement, why did you choose to do so here? Frankly, I don’t believe that you don’t mean it as an attack on the lifestyle choices of others, and I’m not surprised that people get defensive.
  • walterstucco666 7y ago
    > But “veganism is unhealthy” is an opinion No, it is not.
    • deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    • scaredginger 7y ago
      Agreed, it is a false claim stated as fact.
      • erik_landerholm 7y ago
        correct. my vegan in-laws, have been vegan for 40 years now and they are in very good condition for their age. Saying it's "unhealthy" with no nuance is a ridiculous statement. It is in a no-way a fact. People that speak like this give people that speak in facts a bad name.
        • walterstucco666 7y ago
          My uncle has been smoking for 50 years, suffering no consequences whatsoever. It must be because cigarettes are good for the health. /sarcasm That's exactly why speaking the truth is fundamental, being kind is simply a plus: we all do reckless stuff in life, we all base some choice on assumptions or beliefs, it's usually not that bad, but it can be and someone needs to say it. Just the fact that we are discussing about an unhealthy diet, that killed millions of people in poor countries, because in rich countries we have doctors and pharmacies and a lot of ways to overcome its dangers and we can't agree that a fact is a fact and choices are choices, proves that being kind before being right can be dangerous. Doctors will never say "you should eat vegan because it's better for your health", they will say "you should remove this or that from your diet" if something is wrong (yes, bacon is unhealthy too, coke in unhealthy as well etc. etc.) and if you decide to go vegan they will say "it won't probably affect your health, but be careful. Also I want to visit you again in a couple of months". That's just what it is, unhealthy means not healthy, it doesn't mean deadly at contact! But people are more sensitive about their choices than their health conditions. People think that their choices defines them, they resist to changes and to facts that challenge their status, because it shutters their reality and trigger their insecurities. It's not personal, If I say "veganism is unhealthy" it' because it's historically correct and still a cause of malnutritions around the World, not because I think vegans are stupid. I think they are adults making unhealthy choices (I hope knowing it), just like driving too fast, drinking too much, living a sedentary life or, like my uncle, smoking for 50 years. My dad worked in lung oncology and doctors couldn't stop some people from smoking even after they had to surgically remove one of the lungs because tumor destroyed it. Lucky them in Italy healthcare is paid by everybody's taxes or we would have more than a few Walter White. A popular similar episode happened in the UK, a former very popular soccer player, George Best, had a liver transplant because he drank too much. Even after that he kept drinking and it led to complications and a liver infection that killed him at the age of 59. Few days before he died he asked to be photographed in the hospital and the photo published with the message "Don't die like me". It took him 59 years, a liver transplant and an horrible death at relatively young age to understand he was wrong. Do you think nobody was kind, empathetic or nice with him before about his alcoholism problem? But how many more were nice with him just to take advantage of his glory, fame, and, of course, money? Being nice alone serves no purpose, being empathetic or nice, sometimes requires "not nice" manners. If somebody confronted him and actually forced him to quit, he could well be alive and that liver could have saved someone who deserved it more than a repentless alcoholic. We should also ask to ourselves: why is it so important for some people to convince others? What purpose does it serve to have tools (empathy, kindness) to win people trust (they value the messenger), when we have tools (logic, fact checking) to evaluate the actual message? Back to cigarettes. Hironically my dad was also an heavy smoker, and reduced it a lot when my mother was pregnant of my sister (she had medical problems while being pregnant of me) and completely quit when my sister was born, because she suffered from asthma. He went from 3 packs a day to zero in a few months and has been cigarettes free for 43 years now. He knew he was wrong, he just had no reason to change, he probably thought that without cigarettes he would have lost self-confidence. My mother has always been more kind than right, but she couldn't convince him to quit, no matter how she tried. Your partner shouldn't convince you to quit smoking or drinking when you have little kids, you either understand it on your own or they make you. There's no amount of discussing the matter that can be considered acceptable. There should be no space for being nice or empathic or reasonable or compromising. But my dad also taught me that "you smoke years of your life away" (just like Bezos with his grandma, it's true, you really do...) and I have never touched a cigarette before I was in my late 20s, not because I ws scared, but because I thought it was stupid! I eventually started smoking to make breaks at work, admittedly one of the worst decision of my life, but I like it and keep smoking from time to time, no matter how nicely people advice me to stop. p.s. many in the comments are assuming that people talking straight haven't tried being kind or understanding before.
• landryraccoon 7y ago
  Are you open to the possibility that even your deeply held beliefs, like “veganism is unhealthy” could be wrong? I have very frequently blundered into defending a false assertion for far longer than I should have, especially in work settings where you never know when you might meet someone much, much more well informed about a subject than yourself. That burned me a lot when I was younger. Intellectual humility has never failed to serve me. I wish I was more humble about my strongly held opinions (that I thought were facts) when I was younger.
• reubens 7y ago
  > “as a statement of opinion, rather than a statement of fact” I think your prior statement about ‘nuances’ discounts this as a fact. Perhaps your strong opinions are not entirely facts?