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I think a large part of this involves personal insecurities. I remember saying truthful things in very shitty ways during my younger years. But I also had a lot

I think a large part of this involves personal insecurities. I remember saying truthful things in very shitty ways during my younger years. But I also had a lot to prove, having just started out in life as an adult. Somehow as I grew older (starting in my mid-30s I suppose), I became more and more aware of how I was affecting other people with my choice of words, and I had less and less reasons to "defeat" people in conversation. When victory is no longer the objective in a discussion, you tend relax, and can choose your words more carefully.

beefhash 7y ago
> Somehow as I grew older (starting in my mid-30s I suppose), I became more and more aware of how I was affecting other people with my choice of words, and I had less and less reasons to "defeat" people in conversation. When victory is no longer the objective in a discussion, you tend relax, and can choose your words more carefully. Without trying to invalidate what it is you're saying: Would it be false to say that, you have also realized that how you say things will have consequences on your personal reputation and may be subconsciously taking them into consideration as well?
- adjkant 7y ago
  Not OP but 100% no for me. The difference here really is motivational difference of empathy vs selfishness. I think if you've learned the latter there's still much to be gained, even if the actions in this specific case are the same.
- kstenerud 7y ago
  Most definitely this would be a part of it, but only when dealing with people with whom you'll have recurring interactions, or within your tribe (where word gets around). Online this tends to disappear (at least to our perception). When there's no face-to-face interaction, we seem to lose that reputation instinct rather quickly...
- brudgers 7y ago
  There’s nothing wrong with being known as the type of person you want to be. It’s a side effect of being a version of you that you like. Of being able to live with yourself.
iovrthoughtthis 7y ago
I think this pokes at the heart of what it means to be mature. To become more aware of how what we do and say impacts other people and their perception of us.
- wruza 7y ago
  Social-positively mature. One can be mature and stable in their decisions, obligations, ideas, etc, but give much less damn about how others feel. There are people‘s people and things’ people, the latter usually discriminated for not thinking about someone’s insecurities. I met strangers on the internet who could rip off everyone insecure around and then discuss a topic freely being sure that the opponents who remained are strong persons not changing their minds or truths, not playing logical tricks when being offended. It is somewhat beautiful when a group of commenters almost kills itself only to continue in peace. The world that triggers on a minuscle misstatements has to learn from them, don’t you think? I would say that a heart of being mature is when you don’t care how someone says something, but that is out of trend right now.
lcall 7y ago
Similar experience here. I thought of us all more in terms of whether I & they were "doing it right", but I try now to see others as individuals of infinite worth, and remembering that things can be OK in the end, so I can hopefully think more about them as a person who (like me) is still learning, and has a unique background of experiences good & bad, likes/dislikes, choices, habits, ideals & dreams, and tremendous potential. I made notes on this for myself to review periodically (helpful for me at least), which I have also posted (at a simple site): http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854745184.html http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854745184.html .
- beenBoutIT 7y ago
  The reality is that, unlike yourself, most people replace "learning new things" with "actively avoiding learning new things" at some point after leaving high school. Correcting one of these people can snap them out of their self-imposed rut just long enough to correct a bad habit.
  - lcall 7y ago
    That might be true sometimes, but my experience is that more often it just alienates them (or lowers their confidence), which reduces chances of future success working together. I've found that certain mental habits I try to cultivate help me to say what is needed, if/when needed, in a way to move forward more and back less.
    - kajmagnusmobile 7y ago
      What are those mental habits? Edit: it's the blog post you linked above? "How to see self & others: not as better/worse, but as individuals..." ?
      - lcall 7y ago
        Yes, especially if you follow links around (or start at the home page). If there is any page on the site where you would like more ideas or content added, let me know (the footer has an email address), as often I have much more written under that part of my private notes, just haven't taken the time to decide what more I should mark public for export and edit for readability. The last link on most pages has more info on how to read the site. Honest comments are much appreciated. Edit: examples include, though I'm not sure if I have them concisely in these words (but I do have a ton of notes) are: to try to ask gentle questions instead of making strong statements whenever possible, to observe more than I did, to wait 72 hours thinking things over before making a negative/critical/possibly hurtful statement, to use the "compliment sandwich" (sincerely) to clarify that I respect/love them as a person and they are more important than the issue, to remember a quote from Pres. Thomas S. Monson to never make a problem to be solved more important than a person to be loved, to pray about how to help someone or if/how I should say things, and not forgetting that saying nothing can also be a selfish disservice (ie, finding the right balance: some things really do need to be said), and a routine to review habits at the right times, mentally practicing, including praying daily until I am confident I will remember the most important things and have a comfort level that my plan for the day is good (which has been helpful). Note: I have not spent much time as a manager, but we have grandchildren, and I see that clear statements of what needs to happen can be required more often than the above suggests, but with thoughtfulness and caring toward others. I also know that if someone is a threat to others or the org., that boundaries need to be set, sometimes immediately, and there are consequences for performance and for choices, which should be made clear, and it is worth helping people develop and learn from where they are. Authority with accountability, choices to consequences, are relationships that should not be disrupted, it seems to me. I also try to remember that I have learned for myself that God lives and will judge us all, that this person who is learning might be my superior in the eyes of God (for all I know), might be more humble or have overcome more than I have or such (I am not qualified to judge), so I had better treat them with respect, and that God has commanded us to forgive everyone, so some things I can just let go. But trust is different from forgiveness, and should be based on real reasons of performance over time, not words or wishes. And my mistakes are forgivable also, based on repentance, and there is much more, which is why I made a web site....
tomp 7y ago
Interesting, I find the opposite conclusion. I think it mostly has to do with other people's insecurities. If I say something like, "veganism is unhealthy" (because of lack of B12... yes I'm aware there are nuances), some vegans interpret that as a statement of opinion, rather than a statement of fact, or even as an attack on their lifestyle choices, because they are so involved with their egos. I try to follow Paul Graham's dictum "keep your identity small", the saying "strong opinions weakly held" and/or I've extremely strong self-confidence (compared to most people), so I seem to be way less personally affected by statements like these (though I'm sure I have other triggers)... Granted I'm only 30 so maybe that will change in a few years, but for the time being I've started to moderate my stated opinions to spare other people's feelings (though I still think it would be better if they grew more emotionally mature, but I realize that's unlikely to happen), to improve social relations and, frankly, also because it's getting more and more dangerous out there, with political correctness and/or China-driven character assassinations.
- Accacin 7y ago
  Maybe because you're mentioning one group specifically. Any diet can be unhealthy. The fact that Vegans need to be a bit more careful doesn't make it inherently more unhealthy.
  - tomp 7y ago
    No, it's just an example. Probably a poor example. In reality I don't often meet vegans, but people get upset for all kinds of reasons / statements, most commonly for political ones which are to be avoided on HN (and real life) (and are quite easy to avoid, if you want to). Another (non-political) one that comes up fairly often, is that I don't think it's reasonable to congratulate people when they decide to get married... it's a decision after all, nothing to do with achievement and/or luck (for most people I know at least, who aren't extremely lonely to the extent that finding anyone that tolerates them is an achievement... in which case, "congratulations" would be more in order), and if anything, they should be warned (as many marriages end in failure). But if you say that, you're the asshole.
    - 7y ago
walterstucco666 7y ago
> I remember saying truthful things in very shitty ways during my younger years People prefer to be deceived than proven wrong. That's why young people are often thought of as shitty, because they have far less sovrastructures. The more people age the more they think that when they where young they were shitty and insecure, because they need to justify becoming conformists (they prefer to deceive themselves)
draw_down 7y ago
Yes, I experienced something like that as well. I don’t feel I have anything to prove anymore; listening and choosing my words more carefully comes as a very natural approach to conversation now. I’m also a lot less interested in convincing people of things, though. It’s not important to me for others to see things as I do anymore.
ram_rar 7y ago
you hit the nail in the head. I cannot resonate with this enough. The more and more I realise, I dont have to win a conversation, the more relaxed it gets.

beefhash 7y ago

> Somehow as I grew older (starting in my mid-30s I suppose), I became more and more aware of how I was affecting other people with my choice of words, and I had less and less reasons to "defeat" people in conversation. When victory is no longer the objective in a discussion, you tend relax, and can choose your words more carefully. Without trying to invalidate what it is you're saying: Would it be false to say that, you have also realized that how you say things will have consequences on your personal reputation and may be subconsciously taking them into consideration as well?

adjkant 7y ago
Not OP but 100% no for me. The difference here really is motivational difference of empathy vs selfishness. I think if you've learned the latter there's still much to be gained, even if the actions in this specific case are the same.
kstenerud 7y ago
Most definitely this would be a part of it, but only when dealing with people with whom you'll have recurring interactions, or within your tribe (where word gets around). Online this tends to disappear (at least to our perception). When there's no face-to-face interaction, we seem to lose that reputation instinct rather quickly...
brudgers 7y ago
There’s nothing wrong with being known as the type of person you want to be. It’s a side effect of being a version of you that you like. Of being able to live with yourself.

iovrthoughtthis 7y ago

I think this pokes at the heart of what it means to be mature. To become more aware of how what we do and say impacts other people and their perception of us.

wruza 7y ago
Social-positively mature. One can be mature and stable in their decisions, obligations, ideas, etc, but give much less damn about how others feel. There are people‘s people and things’ people, the latter usually discriminated for not thinking about someone’s insecurities. I met strangers on the internet who could rip off everyone insecure around and then discuss a topic freely being sure that the opponents who remained are strong persons not changing their minds or truths, not playing logical tricks when being offended. It is somewhat beautiful when a group of commenters almost kills itself only to continue in peace. The world that triggers on a minuscle misstatements has to learn from them, don’t you think? I would say that a heart of being mature is when you don’t care how someone says something, but that is out of trend right now.

lcall 7y ago

Similar experience here. I thought of us all more in terms of whether I & they were "doing it right", but I try now to see others as individuals of infinite worth, and remembering that things can be OK in the end, so I can hopefully think more about them as a person who (like me) is still learning, and has a unique background of experiences good & bad, likes/dislikes, choices, habits, ideals & dreams, and tremendous potential. I made notes on this for myself to review periodically (helpful for me at least), which I have also posted (at a simple site): http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854745184.html http://lukecall.net/e-9223372036854745184.html .

beenBoutIT 7y ago
The reality is that, unlike yourself, most people replace "learning new things" with "actively avoiding learning new things" at some point after leaving high school. Correcting one of these people can snap them out of their self-imposed rut just long enough to correct a bad habit.
- lcall 7y ago
  That might be true sometimes, but my experience is that more often it just alienates them (or lowers their confidence), which reduces chances of future success working together. I've found that certain mental habits I try to cultivate help me to say what is needed, if/when needed, in a way to move forward more and back less.
  - kajmagnusmobile 7y ago
    What are those mental habits? Edit: it's the blog post you linked above? "How to see self & others: not as better/worse, but as individuals..." ?
    - lcall 7y ago
      Yes, especially if you follow links around (or start at the home page). If there is any page on the site where you would like more ideas or content added, let me know (the footer has an email address), as often I have much more written under that part of my private notes, just haven't taken the time to decide what more I should mark public for export and edit for readability. The last link on most pages has more info on how to read the site. Honest comments are much appreciated. Edit: examples include, though I'm not sure if I have them concisely in these words (but I do have a ton of notes) are: to try to ask gentle questions instead of making strong statements whenever possible, to observe more than I did, to wait 72 hours thinking things over before making a negative/critical/possibly hurtful statement, to use the "compliment sandwich" (sincerely) to clarify that I respect/love them as a person and they are more important than the issue, to remember a quote from Pres. Thomas S. Monson to never make a problem to be solved more important than a person to be loved, to pray about how to help someone or if/how I should say things, and not forgetting that saying nothing can also be a selfish disservice (ie, finding the right balance: some things really do need to be said), and a routine to review habits at the right times, mentally practicing, including praying daily until I am confident I will remember the most important things and have a comfort level that my plan for the day is good (which has been helpful). Note: I have not spent much time as a manager, but we have grandchildren, and I see that clear statements of what needs to happen can be required more often than the above suggests, but with thoughtfulness and caring toward others. I also know that if someone is a threat to others or the org., that boundaries need to be set, sometimes immediately, and there are consequences for performance and for choices, which should be made clear, and it is worth helping people develop and learn from where they are. Authority with accountability, choices to consequences, are relationships that should not be disrupted, it seems to me. I also try to remember that I have learned for myself that God lives and will judge us all, that this person who is learning might be my superior in the eyes of God (for all I know), might be more humble or have overcome more than I have or such (I am not qualified to judge), so I had better treat them with respect, and that God has commanded us to forgive everyone, so some things I can just let go. But trust is different from forgiveness, and should be based on real reasons of performance over time, not words or wishes. And my mistakes are forgivable also, based on repentance, and there is much more, which is why I made a web site....

tomp 7y ago

Interesting, I find the opposite conclusion. I think it mostly has to do with other people's insecurities. If I say something like, "veganism is unhealthy" (because of lack of B12... yes I'm aware there are nuances), some vegans interpret that as a statement of opinion, rather than a statement of fact, or even as an attack on their lifestyle choices, because they are so involved with their egos. I try to follow Paul Graham's dictum "keep your identity small", the saying "strong opinions weakly held" and/or I've extremely strong self-confidence (compared to most people), so I seem to be way less personally affected by statements like these (though I'm sure I have other triggers)... Granted I'm only 30 so maybe that will change in a few years, but for the time being I've started to moderate my stated opinions to spare other people's feelings (though I still think it would be better if they grew more emotionally mature, but I realize that's unlikely to happen), to improve social relations and, frankly, also because it's getting more and more dangerous out there, with political correctness and/or China-driven character assassinations.

Accacin 7y ago
Maybe because you're mentioning one group specifically. Any diet can be unhealthy. The fact that Vegans need to be a bit more careful doesn't make it inherently more unhealthy.
- tomp 7y ago
  No, it's just an example. Probably a poor example. In reality I don't often meet vegans, but people get upset for all kinds of reasons / statements, most commonly for political ones which are to be avoided on HN (and real life) (and are quite easy to avoid, if you want to). Another (non-political) one that comes up fairly often, is that I don't think it's reasonable to congratulate people when they decide to get married... it's a decision after all, nothing to do with achievement and/or luck (for most people I know at least, who aren't extremely lonely to the extent that finding anyone that tolerates them is an achievement... in which case, "congratulations" would be more in order), and if anything, they should be warned (as many marriages end in failure). But if you say that, you're the asshole.
  - 7y ago

walterstucco666 7y ago

> I remember saying truthful things in very shitty ways during my younger years People prefer to be deceived than proven wrong. That's why young people are often thought of as shitty, because they have far less sovrastructures. The more people age the more they think that when they where young they were shitty and insecure, because they need to justify becoming conformists (they prefer to deceive themselves)

draw_down 7y ago

Yes, I experienced something like that as well. I don’t feel I have anything to prove anymore; listening and choosing my words more carefully comes as a very natural approach to conversation now. I’m also a lot less interested in convincing people of things, though. It’s not important to me for others to see things as I do anymore.

ram_rar 7y ago

you hit the nail in the head. I cannot resonate with this enough. The more and more I realise, I dont have to win a conversation, the more relaxed it gets.