7 ms·

I stopped believing in TPS when I saw how companies did terrible things with workspace/office organization and supply management under 5S methodology. Basicall

I stopped believing in TPS when I saw how companies did terrible things with workspace/office organization and supply management under 5S methodology. Basically, workers got uncomfortable, de-personalized workspace; no spare parts and materials and less inventory. Maybe it is aestherically pleasing for the management, maybe its easier to audit, but no worker like to work in such system and many of the dogmas actively hurt productivity.

linksnapzz 7y ago
...curiously, this has not had the effect of workers voting to unionize at any of Toyota's plants in the US, where they have that option. Of course, as the managers of Suzuki put it when they were building out the CAMI site in Ontario...you don't adopt another company's production system exactly, any more than you would wear a suit tailored to someone else.
- bdcravens 7y ago
  Doesn't stop programmers from arguing for a process because Google does it.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Especially when they are completely ignoring the fact that what works for Google usually works for Google because they have achieved a certain scale, not that Google achieved that scale by adopting these methods.
    - pytester 7y ago
      To be honest there are a lot of processes that don't work for google either but with their treasure chest of money and profits from an easily defended monopoly flowing in, it's really hard to argue that. I can still remember all of the people who defended the brainteaser questions microsoft and google used to toss at interviewees. If I was right that they were bullshit why wasn't I worth a billion dollars?
      - artsyca 7y ago
        I must be in the twilight zone -- could this thread be the watershed moment where sanity prevails in software?
  - artsyca 7y ago
    Key Performance Indicators aka when metrics turn into targets for jumped up managers
- artsyca 7y ago
  People don't understand dress analogies any more, it's reduced to absurdity along the lines of 'I don't wear suits so problem avoided'
artsyca 7y ago
Automotive analogies are dead we're not building widgets and we're not assembly line workers enough already
- bdcravens 7y ago
  Standardization of code via frameworks and scripts also means we're not artisans either. We're somewhere in between.
  - artsyca 7y ago
    As knowledge workers our role is to create knowledge and disseminate it we're researchers in many ways
mattrp 7y ago
I would prefer the Honda way. Local autonomous teams of engineers led by engineers. Even the ceo has to be an engineer - and famously could field strip and repair the motor from his small engine division in front of vip’s and press when it failed during a plant opening grand ceremony.
- devicetray0 7y ago
  Whoa, is there a video/photo from this? What year? Did a search but could not find it
  - mattrp 7y ago
    That’s a good question. It’s mentioned in the book, “driving Honda” by Jeffrey Rothfeder
    - linksnapzz 7y ago
      Can't recall that particular incident, but I do remember that when one of the engineers in the Honda pit at an F1 race (think it was Mexico City-the race they won in the late '60s) who the chief engineer was for their car, they pointed out Mr. Honda to the reporter. And yeah, while Honda is considered an engineering-led organization, Soichiro Honda was the son of a blacksmith who may very well have not finished highschool. He was an obsessively skilled mechanic and designer, and had famously little regard for college-educated engineers who would make simple mistakes an experienced mechanic would avoid. That race win in the '60s prompted Lee Iaccoca (then at Ford) to want to source Honda engines for the new Escort small car to be sold in Europe. Henry Ford II quashed that idea, saying "no car with my family's name on it will have a Jap engine!". Too bad.
bob1029 7y ago
Anything followed to the extreme will start to break down. We base a lot of what we do on the philosophy of the TPS, but we don't necessarily try to map a car factory 1:1 to our software factory. There are certain abstractions that simply don't make sense. 5S can be a huge trap for businesses that don't realize what the intent is. This is another philosophical item, which doesn't necessarily involve putting labeled bins on everyone's desks and having precisely calibrated seating positions and standardized desk chair models. In our case, we apply the principles of 5S to how we manage our issues and labels in GitHub (which we consider to be a virtual factory floor) not to our physical workspaces.
jammygit 7y ago
A non shared space shouldn’t be set up by a third party. 5S is valuable for any shared spaces, including code bases

linksnapzz 7y ago

...curiously, this has not had the effect of workers voting to unionize at any of Toyota's plants in the US, where they have that option. Of course, as the managers of Suzuki put it when they were building out the CAMI site in Ontario...you don't adopt another company's production system exactly, any more than you would wear a suit tailored to someone else.

bdcravens 7y ago
Doesn't stop programmers from arguing for a process because Google does it.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Especially when they are completely ignoring the fact that what works for Google usually works for Google because they have achieved a certain scale, not that Google achieved that scale by adopting these methods.
  - pytester 7y ago
    To be honest there are a lot of processes that don't work for google either but with their treasure chest of money and profits from an easily defended monopoly flowing in, it's really hard to argue that. I can still remember all of the people who defended the brainteaser questions microsoft and google used to toss at interviewees. If I was right that they were bullshit why wasn't I worth a billion dollars?
    - artsyca 7y ago
      I must be in the twilight zone -- could this thread be the watershed moment where sanity prevails in software?
- artsyca 7y ago
  Key Performance Indicators aka when metrics turn into targets for jumped up managers
artsyca 7y ago
People don't understand dress analogies any more, it's reduced to absurdity along the lines of 'I don't wear suits so problem avoided'

artsyca 7y ago

Automotive analogies are dead we're not building widgets and we're not assembly line workers enough already

bdcravens 7y ago
Standardization of code via frameworks and scripts also means we're not artisans either. We're somewhere in between.
- artsyca 7y ago
  As knowledge workers our role is to create knowledge and disseminate it we're researchers in many ways

mattrp 7y ago

I would prefer the Honda way. Local autonomous teams of engineers led by engineers. Even the ceo has to be an engineer - and famously could field strip and repair the motor from his small engine division in front of vip’s and press when it failed during a plant opening grand ceremony.

devicetray0 7y ago
Whoa, is there a video/photo from this? What year? Did a search but could not find it
- mattrp 7y ago
  That’s a good question. It’s mentioned in the book, “driving Honda” by Jeffrey Rothfeder
  - linksnapzz 7y ago
    Can't recall that particular incident, but I do remember that when one of the engineers in the Honda pit at an F1 race (think it was Mexico City-the race they won in the late '60s) who the chief engineer was for their car, they pointed out Mr. Honda to the reporter. And yeah, while Honda is considered an engineering-led organization, Soichiro Honda was the son of a blacksmith who may very well have not finished highschool. He was an obsessively skilled mechanic and designer, and had famously little regard for college-educated engineers who would make simple mistakes an experienced mechanic would avoid. That race win in the '60s prompted Lee Iaccoca (then at Ford) to want to source Honda engines for the new Escort small car to be sold in Europe. Henry Ford II quashed that idea, saying "no car with my family's name on it will have a Jap engine!". Too bad.

bob1029 7y ago

Anything followed to the extreme will start to break down. We base a lot of what we do on the philosophy of the TPS, but we don't necessarily try to map a car factory 1:1 to our software factory. There are certain abstractions that simply don't make sense. 5S can be a huge trap for businesses that don't realize what the intent is. This is another philosophical item, which doesn't necessarily involve putting labeled bins on everyone's desks and having precisely calibrated seating positions and standardized desk chair models. In our case, we apply the principles of 5S to how we manage our issues and labels in GitHub (which we consider to be a virtual factory floor) not to our physical workspaces.

jammygit 7y ago

A non shared space shouldn’t be set up by a third party. 5S is valuable for any shared spaces, including code bases