5 ms·

Just FYI, if you live in the US, what you just described is criminal extortion.

noonespecial 7y ago
Unfortunately, while technically true we usually just call behavior like this "collections".
PopeDotNinja 7y ago
Interesting. Looking up extortion... https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/extortion.html https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/extortion.html "Most states define extortion as the gaining of property or money by almost any kind of force or threat of violence, property damage, harm to reputation, or unfavorable government action." My IANAL interpretation of that would be extortion wouldn't apply here. Because my security deposit is legally mine, and they were holding it on my behalf, I'm not gaining anything. Demanding my own property back is not the same as profiting. If I had demanded my deposit back plus $1, then it would be extortion. Maybe. Again, IANAL. Fortunately the statute of limitations makes me safe, as this was long ago :)
- unlinked_dll 7y ago
  It's not about whether it's "legally" yours (and even that would be up for dispute) but how you acquired it. You can't threaten somebody to get things, that's extortion
  - tingletech 7y ago
    extortion usually involves a threat of force, this sounds more like blackmail?
    - unlinked_dll 7y ago
      blackmail is extortion
    - ndzig 7y ago
      Perhaps "harm to reputation" as the GP says?
  - kick 7y ago
    Sometimes moral law and legality differ, and I think he was on the right side of moral law.
    - dannypgh 7y ago
      This is a complex situation, because another party is involved: the parents. The ethics and morality of accepting a payment (even if it also satisfies a debt) to let the son continue to defraud his parents is certainly something that reasonable people can debate.
      - wolco 7y ago
        By informing the parents you are getting involved in a situation you don't understand. The fraud could be reasonable based on previous actions. Parents know but there is nothing they can do at the moment so they decide to let it slide and confront in person when they make a surprise visit. Telling both parties changes that and removes the parents ability to ambush.
  - tzs 7y ago
    I suspect that this is reading too much into it. As noted by another commenter above: > "Most states define extortion as the gaining of property or money by almost any kind of force or threat of violence, property damage, harm to reputation, or unfavorable government action." Under your interpretation, if Alice took Bob's lawn mower without permission and refused to return it, and Bob told her he would call the police and report this unless she returned it, that would be extortion. The police coming and arresting Alice for theft is an unfavorable government action from Alice's viewpoint. Similarly, if you were contemplating suing someone for damages over a harm you felt they did to you, it would be extortion if you told them you were going to sue to so unless they agreed to settle.
  - Hamuko 7y ago
    If I get something that I own back, I wouldn't say that qualifies as "gaining" something.
- dannypgh 7y ago
  I think it's not only extortion, it's blackmail, and depending on how the parents paid their son it may have been a federal offense: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/873 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/873 The son was likely guilty of some sort of larceny (theft by deception) and it may have been a federal offense, especially if it crossed state lines or involved the postal system.
- rdc12 7y ago
  Since that is criminal (rather than civil) wouldn't they have to convince the DA/Prosecutor to try the case, which seems unlikely in practice.
dghughes 7y ago
Even if you were owed money? I could see if you tried to get money but this is money already owed to you. Collection agencies (or whatever they are called in the US) hound people for money they owe to third parties. They often call your workplace or relatives as a way to get you pay.
- hackcasual 7y ago
  For extortion there needs to be a threat, and the threat needs to be unrelated to the thing of value you want. Collection agencies generally just call up, and even if they do threaten to call, since it's a threat directly related to the debt, that's generally not extortion.

Unfortunately, while technically true we usually just call behavior like this "collections".

Interesting. Looking up extortion... https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/extortion.html https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/extortion.html "Most states define extortion as the gaining of property or money by almost any kind of force or threat of violence, property damage, harm to reputation, or unfavorable government action." My IANAL interpretation of that would be extortion wouldn't apply here. Because my security deposit is legally mine, and they were holding it on my behalf, I'm not gaining anything. Demanding my own property back is not the same as profiting. If I had demanded my deposit back plus $1, then it would be extortion. Maybe. Again, IANAL. Fortunately the statute of limitations makes me safe, as this was long ago :)

unlinked_dll 7y ago
It's not about whether it's "legally" yours (and even that would be up for dispute) but how you acquired it. You can't threaten somebody to get things, that's extortion
- tingletech 7y ago
  extortion usually involves a threat of force, this sounds more like blackmail?
  - unlinked_dll 7y ago
    blackmail is extortion
  - ndzig 7y ago
    Perhaps "harm to reputation" as the GP says?
- kick 7y ago
  Sometimes moral law and legality differ, and I think he was on the right side of moral law.
  - dannypgh 7y ago
    This is a complex situation, because another party is involved: the parents. The ethics and morality of accepting a payment (even if it also satisfies a debt) to let the son continue to defraud his parents is certainly something that reasonable people can debate.
    - wolco 7y ago
      By informing the parents you are getting involved in a situation you don't understand. The fraud could be reasonable based on previous actions. Parents know but there is nothing they can do at the moment so they decide to let it slide and confront in person when they make a surprise visit. Telling both parties changes that and removes the parents ability to ambush.
- tzs 7y ago
  I suspect that this is reading too much into it. As noted by another commenter above: > "Most states define extortion as the gaining of property or money by almost any kind of force or threat of violence, property damage, harm to reputation, or unfavorable government action." Under your interpretation, if Alice took Bob's lawn mower without permission and refused to return it, and Bob told her he would call the police and report this unless she returned it, that would be extortion. The police coming and arresting Alice for theft is an unfavorable government action from Alice's viewpoint. Similarly, if you were contemplating suing someone for damages over a harm you felt they did to you, it would be extortion if you told them you were going to sue to so unless they agreed to settle.
- Hamuko 7y ago
  If I get something that I own back, I wouldn't say that qualifies as "gaining" something.
dannypgh 7y ago
I think it's not only extortion, it's blackmail, and depending on how the parents paid their son it may have been a federal offense: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/873 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/873 The son was likely guilty of some sort of larceny (theft by deception) and it may have been a federal offense, especially if it crossed state lines or involved the postal system.
rdc12 7y ago
Since that is criminal (rather than civil) wouldn't they have to convince the DA/Prosecutor to try the case, which seems unlikely in practice.

dghughes 7y ago

Even if you were owed money? I could see if you tried to get money but this is money already owed to you. Collection agencies (or whatever they are called in the US) hound people for money they owe to third parties. They often call your workplace or relatives as a way to get you pay.

hackcasual 7y ago
For extortion there needs to be a threat, and the threat needs to be unrelated to the thing of value you want. Collection agencies generally just call up, and even if they do threaten to call, since it's a threat directly related to the debt, that's generally not extortion.