5 ms·

Who is the real Dice Man? The elusive writer behind a cult novel

82 points by robin_reala 7y ago

orf 7y ago
I found this book at the back of my parents shelf when I was much younger and found it fascinating. I still think of it sometimes even today, and flip coins rather than roll a dice when I'm indecisive. I'm surprised that the author is so wholesome. Brilliant book, and it's a shame the film adaptation has fallen through. I guess it's a bit hard to adapt as a lot of it's exposition is inside the main characters head?
- s_Hogg 7y ago
  That didn't stop Fight Club. You're right it's a shame it hasn't happened, though.
  - orf 7y ago
    Fight Club is a little more "interesting" though, split personalties, plot twists and of course fighting is always more adaptable to screen than a man rolling a dice. I think if they did it it may be pretty different from the book.
- lazyant 7y ago
  there's also quite a bit of violent sex and rapey thoughts
eadmund 7y ago
> … a dice … a dice … a dice It’s a die! I guess I shouldn't be stunned that the Grauniad makes this sort of error, but … sheesh.
- robin_reala 7y ago
  To be fair, the title of the novel in question gets it wrong as well.
  - rebuilder 7y ago
    How's that? It's plural in the title, isn't it?
    - krustyburger 7y ago
      I haven’t read the book but it seems like the protagonist just has the one die.
      - kuroguro 7y ago
        "Die Man" sounds like a horrible title tho.
        krustyburger 7y ago
        No one who speaks German can be an evil man.
      - Jedi72 7y ago
        He uses multiple dice a few times, but its more that he refers to "the dice" as some kind of god of chance, like "I shall let the dice decide my fate".
- randomsearch 7y ago
  It’s a dice, and data is singular, language evolves, it’s not so important, artists can use it how they see fit.
- djur 7y ago
  Singular "dice" is common in UK English. This article discusses it, and refers to a 2006 article, coincidentally about this book, also in The Guardian: https://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2006/09/die-and-dice.html https://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2006/09/die-...
bionoid 7y ago
I had not heard about this, but the title reminded me of a 90s UK travel show based on a similar concept, "The Dice Man" [0]. The host asks strangers for alternatives and throws the dice to decide what to do / where to go [0] https://diceman.co.uk/ https://diceman.co.uk/
- robin_reala 7y ago
  Based on the same novel as specifically stated on the site.
- chatmasta 7y ago
  Sounds cool, but finding six things to do sounds at least as hard as finding one!
  - martinpw 7y ago
    Nice thing about a die is that you don't need six different things. Lots of ways to map a 1-6 number range to limited choices.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    Finding six things is obviously easier, since it's the choice of "what's the specific thing I should do" that's usually difficult, not the enumeration of different choices. The dice method lets you remove yourself from this difficult final decision -- and since the decision you're now reluctant to take is now just 1 in 6 or 2 in 6 or such, and you include safe options too (e.g. "do nothing"), it's easier to write them down (you still feel like you have a way out through the dice when you're writing the difficult option down, as it might not come up).
- greysylph 7y ago
  Do I know you?
Zhyl 7y ago
It's interesting to compare "Dice Man"[0] with "Yes Man"[1] (the book, not the Jim Carrey film adaptation). Both books are about people putting their decision making to an external force (Dice man with a die, Yes Man by accepting any offer or invitation that he was given). Dice Man embraces randomness which ultimately leads to Chaos and self destruction. Yes Man embraces positivity and most of the outcomes are positive and constrictive. One of the main issues I had with Dice Man when I read it was that you were kind of limited in a way because you were making a discreet set of decisions and it seems like the book was encouraging you to always include destructive options, which would occur (intrinsically) with a probability of some multiple of 1/6. To abuse the gamblers ruin, this basically means that if you're including destructive options, then you're almost certain to do damage to yourself eventually. To that end, it didn't really seem that useful to me as a philosophy or as a tool. Not in any meaningful way. Yes Man, on the other hand, feels like it has greatly changed my life for the better. Your flatmate comes home from work and says to you "I've just had someone pull out of a gig. Want to come? I'm leaving in half an hour". You go, putting aside the fact that you're tired and were looking forward to some quiet TV. You meet someone who you end up dating for a few years. Or how a friend at college invited me to a talk given by local companies in the area offering industrial placements (year long internships taken as part of the degree). It was in 5 minutes time and I wasn't on the 4 year course that the placement was a part of. I had a free period so I went. Off the back of that I changed my course to the 4 year, applied to one of the companies that presented. I got the placement and off the back of that learned basically all the technical skills that got me my first job out of college. So on and etc. I can't see the dice really allowing for that kind of flow, unless you use a d20 and heavily stack all of the options with positive, enriching and life affirming options. Which, really, isn't what the Dice Man book encourages at all. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dice_Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dice_Man [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Man_(book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Man_(book)
- rebuilder 7y ago
  I'm not sure I'd say "The Dice Man" encourages anyone to do what the Rhinehart character does in the book.
  - 7y ago
FillardMillmore 7y ago
I cant say I've ever read the novel, but I do know there was a song based on it created by legendary post-punk group The Fall: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQC9PVFi-xc&app=desktop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQC9PVFi-xc&app=desktop
- the-rc 7y ago
  It also inspired one of Talk Talk's hits, Such a shame.
kthejoker2 7y ago
Having never heard of this, what other true "cult novels" are out there? They mentioned Castaneda (The Teachings of Don Juan) in the article, I also thought of The Magus by John Fowles, The Glass Bead Game by Hesse and of course Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. What others are out there?
- rebuilder 7y ago
  Illuminatus! by Robert Anton Wilson comes to mind.
  - cslawson 7y ago
    Yeah that and The Dice Man are the two big ones that stand out to me. I heard of them both years back from everything2: https://everything2.com/title/Books+that+will+induce+a+mindfuck https://everything2.com/title/Books+that+will+induce+a+mindf...
    - kthejoker2 7y ago
      Whoa, someone replying about E2 on my post feels like a Dice Man-style event! I was the lead developer there for a few years, after Jay Bonci split.
  - teh_klev 7y ago
    Hail Eris!
    - _0ffh 7y ago
      All hail Discordia!
- coldtea 7y ago
  Some that come to mind: Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas https://www.amazon.com/Fear-Loathing-Las-Vegas-American/dp/0679785892 https://www.amazon.com/Fear-Loathing-Las-Vegas-American/dp/0... Under the Volcano https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jan/05/100-best-novels-observer-malcolm-lowry-under-the-volcano https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jan/05/100-best-novel... All the kinds horses https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/all-kings-horses https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/all-kings-horses The Sorrows of Young Werther https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorrows_of_Young_Werther https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorrows_of_Young_Werther The Catcher in the Rye https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Catcher_in_the_Rye https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Catcher_in_the_Rye The Outsider https://www.amazon.com/Outsider-Colin-Wilson/dp/0874772060 https://www.amazon.com/Outsider-Colin-Wilson/dp/0874772060 Meetings With Remarkable Men https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3064956-meetings-with-remarkable-men https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3064956-meetings-with-re... On the road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Road Fight Club https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight_Club https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight_Club Naked Lunch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_Lunch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_Lunch Ham on Rye https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham_on_Rye https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham_on_Rye Jonathan Livingston Seagull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Livingston_Seagull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Livingston_Seagull Another Roadside Attraction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Another_Roadside_Attraction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Another_Roadside_Attraction
coldtea 7y ago
I vaguely knew the book/concept, but this is very well written piece.
- teh_klev 7y ago
  I thoroughly recommend the book. When I first read it, it only took me two sittings over a weekend to complete.
Jamwinner 7y ago
So is this better or worse than a more guided type randomness such as the ancient 'throwing coins' routine? As with all scrivining, its more bout how you approach it.
source99 7y ago
I had to stop reading dice man. I just found it to be very depressing because of all the negative actions he takes.
_0ffh 7y ago
I like to make random or impulsive (where available) choices to escape Fredkin's paradox, but to leave all options on the table for the dice to decide does not look very wise to me.
warlog 7y ago
I read DM when I was into Intermittent Fasting (IF). I was fasting one day per week (Mondays) and I found I would cheat on Sundays by eating big meals, etc. So I changed it up and let the die decide if any given day was a fast day. I used 1d8 and 1s meant no eating that day (24h). Did it fora few months and it kicked my weight loss up a notch. And yes: I had a few consecutive 1 days... So fasting was extended to 48h. No triples though, thank Zeus. It cured the cheating ... And I found myself praying before rolls for "no 1s". I called it stochastic IF (or SIF). This is what I imagined cave dudes faced. SIF.

82 points by robin_reala 7y ago

orf 7y ago

I found this book at the back of my parents shelf when I was much younger and found it fascinating. I still think of it sometimes even today, and flip coins rather than roll a dice when I'm indecisive. I'm surprised that the author is so wholesome. Brilliant book, and it's a shame the film adaptation has fallen through. I guess it's a bit hard to adapt as a lot of it's exposition is inside the main characters head?

s_Hogg 7y ago
That didn't stop Fight Club. You're right it's a shame it hasn't happened, though.
- orf 7y ago
  Fight Club is a little more "interesting" though, split personalties, plot twists and of course fighting is always more adaptable to screen than a man rolling a dice. I think if they did it it may be pretty different from the book.
lazyant 7y ago
there's also quite a bit of violent sex and rapey thoughts

eadmund 7y ago

> … a dice … a dice … a dice It’s a die! I guess I shouldn't be stunned that the Grauniad makes this sort of error, but … sheesh.

robin_reala 7y ago
To be fair, the title of the novel in question gets it wrong as well.
- rebuilder 7y ago
  How's that? It's plural in the title, isn't it?
  - krustyburger 7y ago
    I haven’t read the book but it seems like the protagonist just has the one die.
    - kuroguro 7y ago
      "Die Man" sounds like a horrible title tho.
      - krustyburger 7y ago
        No one who speaks German can be an evil man.
    - Jedi72 7y ago
      He uses multiple dice a few times, but its more that he refers to "the dice" as some kind of god of chance, like "I shall let the dice decide my fate".
randomsearch 7y ago
It’s a dice, and data is singular, language evolves, it’s not so important, artists can use it how they see fit.
djur 7y ago
Singular "dice" is common in UK English. This article discusses it, and refers to a 2006 article, coincidentally about this book, also in The Guardian: https://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2006/09/die-and-dice.html https://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2006/09/die-...

bionoid 7y ago

I had not heard about this, but the title reminded me of a 90s UK travel show based on a similar concept, "The Dice Man" [0]. The host asks strangers for alternatives and throws the dice to decide what to do / where to go [0] https://diceman.co.uk/ https://diceman.co.uk/

robin_reala 7y ago
Based on the same novel as specifically stated on the site.
chatmasta 7y ago
Sounds cool, but finding six things to do sounds at least as hard as finding one!
- martinpw 7y ago
  Nice thing about a die is that you don't need six different things. Lots of ways to map a 1-6 number range to limited choices.
- coldtea 7y ago
  Finding six things is obviously easier, since it's the choice of "what's the specific thing I should do" that's usually difficult, not the enumeration of different choices. The dice method lets you remove yourself from this difficult final decision -- and since the decision you're now reluctant to take is now just 1 in 6 or 2 in 6 or such, and you include safe options too (e.g. "do nothing"), it's easier to write them down (you still feel like you have a way out through the dice when you're writing the difficult option down, as it might not come up).
greysylph 7y ago
Do I know you?

Zhyl 7y ago

It's interesting to compare "Dice Man"[0] with "Yes Man"[1] (the book, not the Jim Carrey film adaptation). Both books are about people putting their decision making to an external force (Dice man with a die, Yes Man by accepting any offer or invitation that he was given). Dice Man embraces randomness which ultimately leads to Chaos and self destruction. Yes Man embraces positivity and most of the outcomes are positive and constrictive. One of the main issues I had with Dice Man when I read it was that you were kind of limited in a way because you were making a discreet set of decisions and it seems like the book was encouraging you to always include destructive options, which would occur (intrinsically) with a probability of some multiple of 1/6. To abuse the gamblers ruin, this basically means that if you're including destructive options, then you're almost certain to do damage to yourself eventually. To that end, it didn't really seem that useful to me as a philosophy or as a tool. Not in any meaningful way. Yes Man, on the other hand, feels like it has greatly changed my life for the better. Your flatmate comes home from work and says to you "I've just had someone pull out of a gig. Want to come? I'm leaving in half an hour". You go, putting aside the fact that you're tired and were looking forward to some quiet TV. You meet someone who you end up dating for a few years. Or how a friend at college invited me to a talk given by local companies in the area offering industrial placements (year long internships taken as part of the degree). It was in 5 minutes time and I wasn't on the 4 year course that the placement was a part of. I had a free period so I went. Off the back of that I changed my course to the 4 year, applied to one of the companies that presented. I got the placement and off the back of that learned basically all the technical skills that got me my first job out of college. So on and etc. I can't see the dice really allowing for that kind of flow, unless you use a d20 and heavily stack all of the options with positive, enriching and life affirming options. Which, really, isn't what the Dice Man book encourages at all. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dice_Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dice_Man [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Man_(book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Man_(book)

rebuilder 7y ago
I'm not sure I'd say "The Dice Man" encourages anyone to do what the Rhinehart character does in the book.
- 7y ago

FillardMillmore 7y ago

I cant say I've ever read the novel, but I do know there was a song based on it created by legendary post-punk group The Fall: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQC9PVFi-xc&app=desktop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQC9PVFi-xc&app=desktop

the-rc 7y ago
It also inspired one of Talk Talk's hits, Such a shame.

kthejoker2 7y ago

Having never heard of this, what other true "cult novels" are out there? They mentioned Castaneda (The Teachings of Don Juan) in the article, I also thought of The Magus by John Fowles, The Glass Bead Game by Hesse and of course Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. What others are out there?

rebuilder 7y ago
Illuminatus! by Robert Anton Wilson comes to mind.
- cslawson 7y ago
  Yeah that and The Dice Man are the two big ones that stand out to me. I heard of them both years back from everything2: https://everything2.com/title/Books+that+will+induce+a+mindfuck https://everything2.com/title/Books+that+will+induce+a+mindf...
  - kthejoker2 7y ago
    Whoa, someone replying about E2 on my post feels like a Dice Man-style event! I was the lead developer there for a few years, after Jay Bonci split.
- teh_klev 7y ago
  Hail Eris!
  - _0ffh 7y ago
    All hail Discordia!
coldtea 7y ago
Some that come to mind: Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas https://www.amazon.com/Fear-Loathing-Las-Vegas-American/dp/0679785892 https://www.amazon.com/Fear-Loathing-Las-Vegas-American/dp/0... Under the Volcano https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jan/05/100-best-novels-observer-malcolm-lowry-under-the-volcano https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jan/05/100-best-novel... All the kinds horses https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/all-kings-horses https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/all-kings-horses The Sorrows of Young Werther https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorrows_of_Young_Werther https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorrows_of_Young_Werther The Catcher in the Rye https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Catcher_in_the_Rye https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Catcher_in_the_Rye The Outsider https://www.amazon.com/Outsider-Colin-Wilson/dp/0874772060 https://www.amazon.com/Outsider-Colin-Wilson/dp/0874772060 Meetings With Remarkable Men https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3064956-meetings-with-remarkable-men https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3064956-meetings-with-re... On the road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Road Fight Club https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight_Club https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight_Club Naked Lunch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_Lunch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_Lunch Ham on Rye https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham_on_Rye https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham_on_Rye Jonathan Livingston Seagull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Livingston_Seagull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Livingston_Seagull Another Roadside Attraction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Another_Roadside_Attraction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Another_Roadside_Attraction

coldtea 7y ago

I vaguely knew the book/concept, but this is very well written piece.

teh_klev 7y ago
I thoroughly recommend the book. When I first read it, it only took me two sittings over a weekend to complete.

Jamwinner 7y ago

So is this better or worse than a more guided type randomness such as the ancient 'throwing coins' routine? As with all scrivining, its more bout how you approach it.

source99 7y ago

I had to stop reading dice man. I just found it to be very depressing because of all the negative actions he takes.

_0ffh 7y ago

I like to make random or impulsive (where available) choices to escape Fredkin's paradox, but to leave all options on the table for the dice to decide does not look very wise to me.

warlog 7y ago

I read DM when I was into Intermittent Fasting (IF). I was fasting one day per week (Mondays) and I found I would cheat on Sundays by eating big meals, etc. So I changed it up and let the die decide if any given day was a fast day. I used 1d8 and 1s meant no eating that day (24h). Did it fora few months and it kicked my weight loss up a notch. And yes: I had a few consecutive 1 days... So fasting was extended to 48h. No triples though, thank Zeus. It cured the cheating ... And I found myself praying before rolls for "no 1s". I called it stochastic IF (or SIF). This is what I imagined cave dudes faced. SIF.