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Hopefully not. I'd hate to click through "This site wants to push new ads to you. Allow notifications?" modals on my shiny new iPhone (edit: in addition to cont

Hopefully not. I'd hate to click through "This site wants to push new ads to you. Allow notifications?" modals on my shiny new iPhone (edit: in addition to content being constrained to poststamp-sized areas between GDPR banners).

crooked-v 7y ago
Notification support is already a thing, and is separate from PWA support.
cglong 7y ago
As opposed to every native app that says the same thing?
- kick 7y ago
  Making the web suck more to match the native experience would be stupid. If people wanted the inconvenience of native apps, they'd use native apps.
  - lwansbrough 7y ago
    They do use native apps, because they offer these features and other conveniences only afforded to native apps within Apple’s control.
    - soraminazuki 7y ago
      Problems with Apple’s app review guidelines should be addressed by pushing for Apple to improve the guideline itself. Pushing for Apple to make their browser more adtech-friendly to the detriment of its users is not a solution.
      - saurik 7y ago
        The core problem with Apple's review guidelines is that Apple should not get to set "review guidelines" for software that runs on a phone they sold to someone else, whether or not they happen to be part of a massive oligopoly wherein their sales and deployed fleet constitute some large percentage of phones being sold with quality parts (using supply chains they have locked up through contracts to prevent small competitors, along with patents on hardware features that they bundle access to only with their locked in software ecosystem). And so like, I in some sense agree? But what this means, and the reason why I agree, is that there should exist an app I can install called Chrome or Firefox that implements a web browser that works the way I might want, in addition to the ability to install whatever app I want (which may, or may not, solve the app review problem).
joneil 7y ago
Browser vendors are finally catching on. From Firefox 72 permission prompts won’t be shown unless they’re triggered from a user interaction. From the blog post: > Notification prompts are very unpopular. On Release, about 99% of notification prompts go unaccepted, with 48% being actively denied by the user. https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2019/11/04/restricting-notification-permission-prompts-in-firefox/ https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2019/11/04/restricti... I’ve heard Chrome is moving in a similar direction
- hqrlk 7y ago
  So instead of getting a permission prompt on load, I will get it when I first click on something. No thanks.
  - lucasverra 7y ago
    Not if you close Tab before clicking :)
    - hqrlk 7y ago
      There's the middle ground where I can freely browse the page without ever being prompted so see notifications. Apple gets this right.
  - royal_ts 7y ago
    No. It should be done the way like Slack does it: - You want to get Notifications for Messages? Click here So that you actually know what it's used for
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      I'm dealing with a bug currently where Slack doesn't keep track of whether I've enabled notifications, so I always get the banner. I think I'd go mad if every website did that :(
- ignoramous 7y ago
lwansbrough 7y ago
You should understand the argument before you form an opinion on it. First of all, there are plenty of us who have legitimate use cases for web push. Second, if you care about being bothered by shitty sites prompting you unprovoked, you have a couple options: content blockers or use different sites. The need for notifications is real and Apple’s choice to exclude their availability in iOS is a business move not a technical move or a users-first move. Making PWAs better on iOS runs counter to Apple’s walled garden business model.
- ori_b 7y ago
  > The need for notifications is real Do you keep metrics on acceptance rates? How many of the notification prompts that you pop up are actually accepted? How much of the time are you just annoying your users?
  - lwansbrough 7y ago
    Like I said, our use case is legitimate in the strictest sense. Users request to enable notifications themselves. We never automatically prompt for it. So like.. 100%.
- tannhaeuser 7y ago
  > There are plenty of us who have legitimate use cases for web push Such as? The only use case for notifications and PWAs I'm coming across are clickbait news sites creating a sense of urgency with "homepage was updated" modals obscuring content and capturing click events. Web user agents have freedoms in rendering pages to users, and Safari siding with users and power efficiency is a good thing. In line with other comments, I predict browsers will soon provide opt-out for notifications, then eventually deprecate them altogether, like they did with popups/popunders. Now, more importantly, Safari could work on their odd pick list control rendering like a dial wheel.
  - lwansbrough 7y ago
    > Such as? Such as a user presses a button in order to enable push notifications.

crooked-v 7y ago

Notification support is already a thing, and is separate from PWA support.

cglong 7y ago

As opposed to every native app that says the same thing?

kick 7y ago
Making the web suck more to match the native experience would be stupid. If people wanted the inconvenience of native apps, they'd use native apps.
- lwansbrough 7y ago
  They do use native apps, because they offer these features and other conveniences only afforded to native apps within Apple’s control.
  - soraminazuki 7y ago
    Problems with Apple’s app review guidelines should be addressed by pushing for Apple to improve the guideline itself. Pushing for Apple to make their browser more adtech-friendly to the detriment of its users is not a solution.
    - saurik 7y ago
      The core problem with Apple's review guidelines is that Apple should not get to set "review guidelines" for software that runs on a phone they sold to someone else, whether or not they happen to be part of a massive oligopoly wherein their sales and deployed fleet constitute some large percentage of phones being sold with quality parts (using supply chains they have locked up through contracts to prevent small competitors, along with patents on hardware features that they bundle access to only with their locked in software ecosystem). And so like, I in some sense agree? But what this means, and the reason why I agree, is that there should exist an app I can install called Chrome or Firefox that implements a web browser that works the way I might want, in addition to the ability to install whatever app I want (which may, or may not, solve the app review problem).

joneil 7y ago

Browser vendors are finally catching on. From Firefox 72 permission prompts won’t be shown unless they’re triggered from a user interaction. From the blog post: > Notification prompts are very unpopular. On Release, about 99% of notification prompts go unaccepted, with 48% being actively denied by the user. https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2019/11/04/restricting-notification-permission-prompts-in-firefox/ https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2019/11/04/restricti... I’ve heard Chrome is moving in a similar direction

hqrlk 7y ago
So instead of getting a permission prompt on load, I will get it when I first click on something. No thanks.
- lucasverra 7y ago
  Not if you close Tab before clicking :)
  - hqrlk 7y ago
    There's the middle ground where I can freely browse the page without ever being prompted so see notifications. Apple gets this right.
- royal_ts 7y ago
  No. It should be done the way like Slack does it: - You want to get Notifications for Messages? Click here So that you actually know what it's used for
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    I'm dealing with a bug currently where Slack doesn't keep track of whether I've enabled notifications, so I always get the banner. I think I'd go mad if every website did that :(
ignoramous 7y ago

lwansbrough 7y ago

You should understand the argument before you form an opinion on it. First of all, there are plenty of us who have legitimate use cases for web push. Second, if you care about being bothered by shitty sites prompting you unprovoked, you have a couple options: content blockers or use different sites. The need for notifications is real and Apple’s choice to exclude their availability in iOS is a business move not a technical move or a users-first move. Making PWAs better on iOS runs counter to Apple’s walled garden business model.

ori_b 7y ago
> The need for notifications is real Do you keep metrics on acceptance rates? How many of the notification prompts that you pop up are actually accepted? How much of the time are you just annoying your users?
- lwansbrough 7y ago
  Like I said, our use case is legitimate in the strictest sense. Users request to enable notifications themselves. We never automatically prompt for it. So like.. 100%.
tannhaeuser 7y ago
> There are plenty of us who have legitimate use cases for web push Such as? The only use case for notifications and PWAs I'm coming across are clickbait news sites creating a sense of urgency with "homepage was updated" modals obscuring content and capturing click events. Web user agents have freedoms in rendering pages to users, and Safari siding with users and power efficiency is a good thing. In line with other comments, I predict browsers will soon provide opt-out for notifications, then eventually deprecate them altogether, like they did with popups/popunders. Now, more importantly, Safari could work on their odd pick list control rendering like a dial wheel.
- lwansbrough 7y ago
  > Such as? Such as a user presses a button in order to enable push notifications.