4 ms·

I think the pendulum has been swinging from Apple towards Microsoft for developer friendliness for some time now. This is definitely an active strategy on MS's

I think the pendulum has been swinging from Apple towards Microsoft for developer friendliness for some time now. This is definitely an active strategy on MS's part, and a huge misstep by Apple. Some key parts of the MS strategy: - Embracing Linux. Beyond what's mentioned in the article, there's the Windows Subsystem for Linux, and the new Terminal app. Being able to run Ubuntu (or whichever distribution) natively on a windows machine, accessing the same file system, is huge for developers. The new Terminal app will make interacting with it even better. - IDE dominance. Visual Studio (classic) combined with the .NET environment languages is very, very powerful. Visual Studio Code has taken web development by storm. A lot of what makes these two so powerful is Intellisense, which is extremely good at what it does. Compare this with XCode. - Premium first party hardware. The Surface line of laptops / 2-in-1s / etc is at least as good as the recent Macbook Pros. They also innovated in an actually useful way (the detachable tablet on the Book), as compared to the developer-hostile "innovations" from Apple (replacing the escape key with a skinny phone, a universally reviled keyboard, etc) I really have to give Nadella credit for the way this has all been orchestrated.

tptacek 7y ago
What changes here would meaningfully change the competitive balance? A macOS subsystem for Linux doesn't sound interesting. Neither, really, does a new IDE for building macOS and iOS applications. What's the real misstep here? The crappy Apple keyboard?
- AmericanChopper 7y ago
  The parent comment just reads like an ad for windows. Having recently had the displeasure of developing on Windows, WSL is terrible and buggy. I’ve tried it on two different occasions and both times I just ended up going back to PS. That comment will get upvoted because hating Apple is so popular here that even shilling Microsoft will get upvotes when framed like this (I guess the “year of the linux desktop” memes got tired?). Apple still makes the best dev machines (unless you’re writing a .NET app), the keyboard is the only legitimate complaint I can see against them, but most people I know actually kinda like it. Even then, for that to be a deal breaker, you have to pretend as though we don’t all have our MacBooks plugged into two monitors and a mechanical keyboard at work (and have you ever used a Surface keyboard? Yikes...).
  - Tossrock 7y ago
    Man, I wish Microsoft was paying me, but I'm just a guy who uses OSX and Windows 10 (and Linux) regularly and doesn't have much of a dog in the fight.
    - AmericanChopper 7y ago
      I don’t have a horse in any race, I just hate these delusional circlejerk comments. There’s no world in which WSL offers a legitimate alternative to a real Unix shell, it doesn’t even compete with powershell in terms of usability.
- Tossrock 7y ago
  I think the misstep by Apple was to focus so heavily on iPhones that they stopped paying attention to the developer experience on Mac. Look at the fucked Catalina release, the slow MacPro update cycle and the abandonment of the Mac Mini, the obscene SSD pricing (especially combined with the way Docker likes to eat gigs...), and yes, the shitty Macbook Pro keyboard and stupid touch bar. Lots of things that together add up to a poor developer experience. Obviously, Mac doesn't need a subsystem for Linux because it's already a *nix and all the tools work there already. Microsoft was playing catch up, but they're starting to look pretty well caught up. Now, this isn't to say Apple is doing poorly, obviously they make ungodly gobs of money and are usually the most valuable company in the world. My original comment was about developer mind share, though, which I think is swinging back towards MS after being thoroughly owned by Apple from, say, 2008-2016. By not making the developer experience a priority, I think Apple is losing ground that they didn't have to cede.
foobarbecue 7y ago
I just got a surface book at work and am absolutely blown away by it. What a clever, effective product.
deleted 7y ago
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chewxy 7y ago
MS has always been super developer friendly as far as I can remember. The difference was in the past you had to buy into their ecosystem and way of thinking. Once that was done, VS was by far the most superior experience. Now MS embraces a greater variety of developers, not just those who bought in. Anyone remember DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS...? EDIT: found a clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs
- starpilot 7y ago
  How times have changed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5164635 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5164635 > Why should I invest in the Microsoft stack? I'm done. Microsoft is no longer a platform I will work on and I will recommend open source products and frameworks from now on. > The Windows tech hegemony is a graveyard. XNA. Silverlight. WPF. DirectX. Managed C++. C++/CLI. Managed DirectX.
  - m_mueller 7y ago
    What changed I guess is that they switched to embrace Linux full on. And now extending it as well. I trust that Linux is safe from extinguishing though - too much of the world runs on it, and free servers are just too compelling.
    - leereeves 7y ago
      Not extinguishing perhaps, but appropriating and building upon Linux for their own benefit without giving much back is certainly possible. Google's already done it with Android.
      - Tossrock 7y ago
        Quite a lot of Google-developed code goes back into the Linux kernel. Look at cgroups - the entire containerization revolution sprung from code Google gave back to Linux.
deleted 7y ago
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ublaze 7y ago
I have to add Git. They seem to have a dedicated Git performance team. I recently sent a patch to improve git performance, and have mostly been collaborating with friendly Microsoft engineers. Not what I expected at a first glance.
- vax425 7y ago
  They HAVE to be passionate about git performance, more than anyone else. They run the biggest repo ever: the Windows source. Give them a perf improvement and they will love you!
scarface74 7y ago
Most developers work for companies that go where the money and eyeballs are. They are both on web and mobile. No matter how “friendly” MS is, if you want to develop for iOS, you have to have a Mac. The entirety of Mac revenue is around 10% of Apple’s revenue. If it does lose the love of developers, it doesn’t make a difference. That being said, I’m mostly all in on Apple - the Watch, iPhone, iPad, AppleTV, and soon AirPods Pro. But I don’t see any purpose for buying a Mac. My tooling and other apps would be the same and you have a lot more options at better prices on Windows.
smohare 7y ago
Do any serious developers who are not already steeped in the MS ecosystem actually clamor to work in that environment? Half of the tools I use on a daily basis are not MS friendly.
randomb_1979 7y ago
But I would still endorse Apple over Microsoft until MS shows that it cares about user privacy by publicly distancing themselves from Facebook. Plus, Apple stuff just works. You still end up being an unpaid IT support for MSFT when you buy Windows machines for your loved ones.
- aaomidi 7y ago
  They care about privacy and still have a massive connection with China? Idk but if you're willing to break your privacy for one state, what's stopping you from breaking it for another?
  - GeekyBear 7y ago
    How is this different than every other company doing business in China, including Microsoft? >Keep your data within datacenters located in China with an Azure China account and stay compliant with international and industry-specific compliance standards. Access to your customer data is controlled by an independent company in China, 21Vianet. Not even Microsoft can access your data without approval and oversight by 21Vianet. https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/global-infrastructure/china/ https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/global-infrastructure/chin...
    - aaomidi 7y ago
      Did i say Microsoft is better? I said that selling point for Apple is just invalid.
      - GeekyBear 7y ago
        Actions that are legally required of every company doing business in a particular country do not invalidate their actions elsewhere. Google, for instance, bragged on their blog to their real customers in advertising that they now buy a copy of everyone's credit card transaction history. No nation forced them to do that.

tptacek 7y ago

What changes here would meaningfully change the competitive balance? A macOS subsystem for Linux doesn't sound interesting. Neither, really, does a new IDE for building macOS and iOS applications. What's the real misstep here? The crappy Apple keyboard?

AmericanChopper 7y ago
The parent comment just reads like an ad for windows. Having recently had the displeasure of developing on Windows, WSL is terrible and buggy. I’ve tried it on two different occasions and both times I just ended up going back to PS. That comment will get upvoted because hating Apple is so popular here that even shilling Microsoft will get upvotes when framed like this (I guess the “year of the linux desktop” memes got tired?). Apple still makes the best dev machines (unless you’re writing a .NET app), the keyboard is the only legitimate complaint I can see against them, but most people I know actually kinda like it. Even then, for that to be a deal breaker, you have to pretend as though we don’t all have our MacBooks plugged into two monitors and a mechanical keyboard at work (and have you ever used a Surface keyboard? Yikes...).
- Tossrock 7y ago
  Man, I wish Microsoft was paying me, but I'm just a guy who uses OSX and Windows 10 (and Linux) regularly and doesn't have much of a dog in the fight.
  - AmericanChopper 7y ago
    I don’t have a horse in any race, I just hate these delusional circlejerk comments. There’s no world in which WSL offers a legitimate alternative to a real Unix shell, it doesn’t even compete with powershell in terms of usability.
Tossrock 7y ago
I think the misstep by Apple was to focus so heavily on iPhones that they stopped paying attention to the developer experience on Mac. Look at the fucked Catalina release, the slow MacPro update cycle and the abandonment of the Mac Mini, the obscene SSD pricing (especially combined with the way Docker likes to eat gigs...), and yes, the shitty Macbook Pro keyboard and stupid touch bar. Lots of things that together add up to a poor developer experience. Obviously, Mac doesn't need a subsystem for Linux because it's already a *nix and all the tools work there already. Microsoft was playing catch up, but they're starting to look pretty well caught up. Now, this isn't to say Apple is doing poorly, obviously they make ungodly gobs of money and are usually the most valuable company in the world. My original comment was about developer mind share, though, which I think is swinging back towards MS after being thoroughly owned by Apple from, say, 2008-2016. By not making the developer experience a priority, I think Apple is losing ground that they didn't have to cede.

foobarbecue 7y ago

I just got a surface book at work and am absolutely blown away by it. What a clever, effective product.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

chewxy 7y ago

MS has always been super developer friendly as far as I can remember. The difference was in the past you had to buy into their ecosystem and way of thinking. Once that was done, VS was by far the most superior experience. Now MS embraces a greater variety of developers, not just those who bought in. Anyone remember DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS...? EDIT: found a clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs

starpilot 7y ago
How times have changed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5164635 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5164635 > Why should I invest in the Microsoft stack? I'm done. Microsoft is no longer a platform I will work on and I will recommend open source products and frameworks from now on. > The Windows tech hegemony is a graveyard. XNA. Silverlight. WPF. DirectX. Managed C++. C++/CLI. Managed DirectX.
- m_mueller 7y ago
  What changed I guess is that they switched to embrace Linux full on. And now extending it as well. I trust that Linux is safe from extinguishing though - too much of the world runs on it, and free servers are just too compelling.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    Not extinguishing perhaps, but appropriating and building upon Linux for their own benefit without giving much back is certainly possible. Google's already done it with Android.
    - Tossrock 7y ago
      Quite a lot of Google-developed code goes back into the Linux kernel. Look at cgroups - the entire containerization revolution sprung from code Google gave back to Linux.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

ublaze 7y ago

I have to add Git. They seem to have a dedicated Git performance team. I recently sent a patch to improve git performance, and have mostly been collaborating with friendly Microsoft engineers. Not what I expected at a first glance.

vax425 7y ago
They HAVE to be passionate about git performance, more than anyone else. They run the biggest repo ever: the Windows source. Give them a perf improvement and they will love you!

scarface74 7y ago

Most developers work for companies that go where the money and eyeballs are. They are both on web and mobile. No matter how “friendly” MS is, if you want to develop for iOS, you have to have a Mac. The entirety of Mac revenue is around 10% of Apple’s revenue. If it does lose the love of developers, it doesn’t make a difference. That being said, I’m mostly all in on Apple - the Watch, iPhone, iPad, AppleTV, and soon AirPods Pro. But I don’t see any purpose for buying a Mac. My tooling and other apps would be the same and you have a lot more options at better prices on Windows.

smohare 7y ago

Do any serious developers who are not already steeped in the MS ecosystem actually clamor to work in that environment? Half of the tools I use on a daily basis are not MS friendly.

randomb_1979 7y ago

But I would still endorse Apple over Microsoft until MS shows that it cares about user privacy by publicly distancing themselves from Facebook. Plus, Apple stuff just works. You still end up being an unpaid IT support for MSFT when you buy Windows machines for your loved ones.

aaomidi 7y ago
They care about privacy and still have a massive connection with China? Idk but if you're willing to break your privacy for one state, what's stopping you from breaking it for another?
- GeekyBear 7y ago
  How is this different than every other company doing business in China, including Microsoft? >Keep your data within datacenters located in China with an Azure China account and stay compliant with international and industry-specific compliance standards. Access to your customer data is controlled by an independent company in China, 21Vianet. Not even Microsoft can access your data without approval and oversight by 21Vianet. https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/global-infrastructure/china/ https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/global-infrastructure/chin...
  - aaomidi 7y ago
    Did i say Microsoft is better? I said that selling point for Apple is just invalid.
    - GeekyBear 7y ago
      Actions that are legally required of every company doing business in a particular country do not invalidate their actions elsewhere. Google, for instance, bragged on their blog to their real customers in advertising that they now buy a copy of everyone's credit card transaction history. No nation forced them to do that.