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WebKit Goals for 2020

170 points by tompic823 7y ago

skrebbel 7y ago
Pardon the all-too-typical off topic: woa, Trac! I haven't seen that in a long time. I have fond recollections of its customizability. Is it still being used in anger and improving, or is this just a legacy system we're looking at?
- rwmj 7y ago
  Trac was/is truly to most awful bug tracking system. I mean a primary function of a bug tracking system should surely be to accept bug reports from users, yet Trac manages to make that the least discoverable and least usable feature. Even things like subscribing to an existing bug report or listing bugs are very hard to find. I would say "impossible" for ordinary people, but will get accused of exaggerating, but go and look at a Trac-based bug tracking system some time to see what I mean. One at random: https://trac.osgeo.org/geos https://trac.osgeo.org/geos
  - kick 7y ago
    Accepting bug reports from users isn't necessarily a goal of bug trackers: in some workflows mailing lists are better for unconfirmed bugs, the actual bug tracker is for confirmed bugs (read: not submitted by users). It works better that way a large amount of the time.
    - rwmj 7y ago
      You certainly want a good way to sort, classify, combine and remove reported bugs (which Trac also makes awful), but you should never put up barriers to accepting bug reports. My rule of thumb is that every bug that someone reports affects 9 other users who couldn't/didn't report it. (Probably with Trac it's 1:99 because of how difficult it is to use.)
      - kick 7y ago
        If you tell people to submit bugs to a mailing list, that means that devs will manually confirm bugs before putting them onto the bug tracker: this gives an incentive to get them taken care of faster, because right as it's added, someone who knows the codebase has a general idea of what's wrong. Mail is standard, so it's not really a barrier. It kind of lessens the Caps-Lock Warriors of Bugzilla-like systems, though.
        rwmj 7y ago
        Then they have to subscribe to the mailing list, which is another set of extra steps. Some people only know the web exists and don't even know mailing lists are a thing.
        kick 7y ago
        url: projectpage.tld/bugs Hi! If you're here, you must have found a bug. Send an email to XXX@projectpage.tld describing the bug, and we'll see to fixing it as fast as we can, and we'll alert you when we've started working on it! You don't have to have them subscribe, necessarily.
        rwmj 7y ago
        Which is basically what I said in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21490182 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21490182 Never put up barriers to accepting bug reports. Now does Trac help in any of this? No.
        kick 7y ago
        Trac is better than the GitHub/Bugzilla model, in any case, in my opinion.
        chrisseaton 7y ago
        As soon as someone thinks about reporting a bug, they’re already doing you a massive favour. Making them go away and write an email (which many people don’t often do any more) you’re already going to be testing their patience. You should be bending over backward to accept the report.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    WebKit uses Bugzilla: https://bugs.webkit.org https://bugs.webkit.org
    - rwmj 7y ago
      Bugzilla is also pretty awful (and I say this as someone who uses Red Hat's Bugzilla instance hourly in my job).
  - scrollaway 7y ago
    Django still uses Trac. https://code.djangoproject.com/query https://code.djangoproject.com/query It really is awful.
- paganel 7y ago
  I’ve been using a Trac+Svn combination for my personal projects for 13 years now. I mainly use it for repository browsing, as I don’t do bug/task management for any of my personal projects, but it’s cool seeing repositories 11 or 12 years old. If it ain’t broke why would I fix it?
tmikaeld 7y ago
I've been implementing FIDO2 into my serverless application, finally there will be iOS support! It really is the golden authentication method, it's very thought through and incredibly easy to use (unfortunately not to implement though)
- noja 7y ago
  Can you recommend something to tie FIDO2 to generic web applications that don't support it directly?
  - tmikaeld 7y ago
    Do you mean like a plugin or API? FIDO2 is not something you can "paste on" it has to be built-in to the login feature, but I guess for things like Wordpress there are hooks you can use. I know of no plugins or APIs you can use to add it, I guess if they appear they will be listed on Yubicos list [0] or on Github [1] [0] https://developers.yubico.com/Software_Projects/FIDO_U2F/U2F_Integration_Plug-ins/ https://developers.yubico.com/Software_Projects/FIDO_U2F/U2F... [1] https://github.com/search?q=FIDO2 https://github.com/search?q=FIDO2 Important: U2F cannot be used as the only authentication method, unlike FIDO2 which fully replace password & 2-factor.
- jlokier 7y ago
  FIDO2 is working, but I wouldn't call it "golden" at all. Tying authentication to a single device you can lose, especially one controlled by the device vendor not by yourself, sounds highly risk prone to me. As far as I'm aware, this is not yet a solved problem with WebauthN or FIDO2 standards - they simply recommend that you provide another authentication method or backup device for recovery, and leave it to you to figure out. (If I've got this completely wrong, I'd love to know.) Although not the same thing, in a similar vein we're already hearing about people locked out of bank accounts that were created in a phone app, and Google doc accounts that they can't log into any more. I wouldn't make the decision to run a business on the back of serverless services I could only get into with FIDO2 keys that are hidden in a vendor device that might die any day. For now, I'll stick with backed up SSH keys and very secret passphrases :-)
modeless 7y ago
The Web Push API is missing. I was hoping for that one.
- alexcroox 7y ago
  A lot of companies build a native version of their web app just for push notifications on iOS. Unfortunately I doubt we’ll see web push any time soon.
  - soraminazuki 7y ago
    I avoid many native apps for the exact same reason. Too often I encounter apps that spam and spy on its users while providing no real benefit over a simple website.
- xPaw 7y ago
  Yeah that's a real bummer. Our open source web app [1] supports web push but it doesn't work on Apple's devices because they won't implement it. The situation on iOS is even worse, because every browser is forced to use Webkit under the hood. [1]: https://github.com/thelounge/thelounge https://github.com/thelounge/thelounge
asciident 7y ago
No WebP? Safari is about to become out of date, and websites will stop working for it. I'm using WebP on my websites with no fallback to jpeg/png at the end of the year.
- mtgx 7y ago
  At this point I'd be more concerned if they have no plans to support AV1 and AVIF. It would be nice if Apple played ball more with the open ecosystems instead of constantly being a thorn in everyone's sides and such a contrarian in everything.
- Carpetsmoker 7y ago
  Imagine being software developer with a sense of professionalism and dealing with your customers as they are, even if it's annoying a tad bit of extra work, instead of telling them to sod off if they're using a browser you don't like.
  - mrmonkeyman 7y ago
    Imagine being an actual engineer and caring about correctness and stupid, oldskool stuff like that.
  - wilsonrocks 7y ago
    While I Personaly wouldn't drop JPEG support yet... Do non-web software developers support every CPU architecture? Because I'm sure I've heard of apps that not run on macs, or just windows and not Raspberry Pis.
    - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
      You're trying to draw a comparison between app developers supporting multiple CPU architectures for their applications, and web developers continuing to use JPEG and PNG files for their web sites. I honestly just don't see how this comparison works.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago
riazrizvi 7y ago
I appreciate this declaration
cdbattags 7y ago
No matter what, any and all improvements to JSC will do wonders to the React Native ecosystem and it's nice to have a list of targets.
newscracker 7y ago
Will 2020 be the year when WebKit, and the Safari browsers by extension, will have full and proper support for Service Workers and PWAs on par with other browsers? I recall reading that Safari lags behind on it, and the allegation was that Apple prefers native apps and doesn’t want web apps to be more popular.
- tannhaeuser 7y ago
  Hopefully not. I'd hate to click through "This site wants to push new ads to you. Allow notifications?" modals on my shiny new iPhone (edit: in addition to content being constrained to poststamp-sized areas between GDPR banners).
  - crooked-v 7y ago
    Notification support is already a thing, and is separate from PWA support.
  - cglong 7y ago
    As opposed to every native app that says the same thing?
    - kick 7y ago
      Making the web suck more to match the native experience would be stupid. If people wanted the inconvenience of native apps, they'd use native apps.
      - lwansbrough 7y ago
        They do use native apps, because they offer these features and other conveniences only afforded to native apps within Apple’s control.
        soraminazuki 7y ago
        Problems with Apple’s app review guidelines should be addressed by pushing for Apple to improve the guideline itself. Pushing for Apple to make their browser more adtech-friendly to the detriment of its users is not a solution.
cordite 7y ago
I'm glad that battery life is a top priority. Though WebP would still be nice to have..
- berkut 7y ago
  HEIF support in Safari would be nice...
- pornel 7y ago
  Apple already has HEIC codec on their systems, which is half the size of WebP. I'm curious why they're not exposing it to the Web. Is it because the codec is a ball of risky C++ code? Patent issues? Or because it's non-standard, and for once, they don't want to add a non-standard feature? There's also JPEG XL being standardized now, which gives similar compression while also supporting lossless conversion from the classic JPEG. This offers nicer migration path. With other formats conversion from JPEG is lossy, so you get smaller files partly because you lose quality in the process.
  - ksec 7y ago
    > Patent issues? As far as I am aware HEVC issues is still not fully resolved. And likely unfit for Web usage.
altmind 7y ago
Hard to understand what each of this items mean since there is no tracking issue# mentioned. Some of items cannot even be googled, what's "Turbo DFG"?
- sirn 7y ago
  > Some of items cannot even be googled, what's "Turbo DFG"? Data Flow Graph, JavaScriptCore's optimizing JIT. https://webkit.org/blog/3362/introducing-the-webkit-ftl-jit/ https://webkit.org/blog/3362/introducing-the-webkit-ftl-jit/
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    One of JavaScriptCore's optimizing JITs.
- om2 7y ago
  These are notes from a live presentation at the WebKit Contributors Meeting. All the items were explained live, there is only so much the notes can convey.
- 214896 7y ago
  Search "WebKit dfg" = https://webkit.org/blog/3362/introducing-the-webkit-ftl-jit/ https://webkit.org/blog/3362/introducing-the-webkit-ftl-jit/ It's a layer of their JS pipeline.
rwmj 7y ago
We use WebKitGtk[1] (embedded WebKit) in our presentation software Tech Talk PSE[2]. It would be great if SVG rendering, used for diagrams, was of equal quality to Firefox, but unfortunately Firefox seems to render SVG in a far superior way so we usually have to convert to PNG files to make diagrams embed correctly. [1] https://webkitgtk.org/ https://webkitgtk.org/ [2] https://rwmj.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/tech-talk-pse-1-1-0/ https://rwmj.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/tech-talk-pse-1-1-0/
- SiVal 7y ago
  Unfortunately, converting to PNG doesn't work for interactive apps that use SVG as an interactive GUI instead of just a static vector image format. Of course, the user could just install Firefox (or Chrome) to get good-quality SVG support if Apple allowed it, which is why Apple doesn't allow it on iOS. After all, if Apple allowed you to freely choose a fully-working browser, they couldn't force you to use their Apple-only native technologies to get things to work well. It would be much harder to lock you and your customers (sorry, Apple reminds us that they are actually Apple's customers, NOT yours) into Apple's private world.
- jwilk 7y ago
  What software do you use for SVG→PNG conversion?
lwansbrough 7y ago
No mention of PWA features (specifically manifest/installation/web push) is so lame. Classic Apple politics.
- suyash 7y ago
  PWA is not one single thing that needs a special mention, bunch of features they have listed will account for a better cross platform web & mobile experience.
  - lwansbrough 7y ago
    None of which particularly contribute to being able to supplant an iOS app with a PWA. Which is intentional on Apple’s part.
- jitl 7y ago
  Service Worker is the first step - they need to catch up there first. It’s on the list!
- throwGuardian 7y ago
  How will they force you into the $99/annum developer program, shaft you a cool 30%, play judge and jury to your ios, macOs app store submissions and reject your work at the first hint of competition, if all the useful PWA features just work on iOS? Lest you dream of software freedom on Apple devices, their sycophants and overzealous employees will gaslight you into believing it's all for user experience and security, and any incidental monopolistic/anti-competitive byproducts are wholly acceptable collateral damage when the betterment of iKind, ahem, mankind is at stake.
  - threeseed 7y ago
    You need to understand that many of us like Apple's approach. We aren't looking for software "freedom" on our phones. We just want apps that are safe, curated, respectful of battery life and do not infringe on our privacy or user experience. Apple's approach gives us that. So by all means complain about app store submissions but as a developer I don't have sympathy for other developers who play loose and fast with the rules.
kmlx 7y ago
as is tradition already, webkit is missing: - full PWA - ServiceWorkers - VP8/9 - webvr - and many others this could all be mitigated if aapl would let us install custom non-webkit browsers on ios. unfortunately it seems we will need the courts to force aapl.
- shantly 7y ago
  Incidentally, is there a way to disable service workers on desktop Safari? Twitter’s went rogue the other day and started eating a whole core, non-stop. I don’t want or need them. Ever. Hopefully mobile safari doesn’t let developers do that to my phone, too.
- xena 7y ago
  iOS already has progressive web app support
  - kmlx 7y ago
    not full support, no
- acdha 7y ago
  Who’d benefit if they did? iOS users would benefit from AV1 but the only thing VP8/9 would add for web users is security exposure and lower battery life. Everyone serving video on the web already has equivalent quality H.264/H.265 and the next big change should be moving into the future with AV1 rather than spending millions to implement previous generations of codecs. Similarly, as a developer I like the idea of Service Workers but as a user I’m forced to note that the only thing they seem to have added to my web experience are sites breaking in a way which requires more than a reload to fix.
bumblebritches5 7y ago
Hopefully completely refactoring it from the bottom up to have a good API.
mkurz 7y ago
Please finally implement the date and time input times! https://caniuse.com/#feat=input-datetime https://caniuse.com/#feat=input-datetime
- paulddraper 7y ago
  The fact that <input type="date"> still isn't a thing proves to me that semantic HTML, non-bloated JS bundles, etc. just will never happen.
  - dbbk 7y ago
    It is a thing, just not in Safari
rptr_87 7y ago
Does webkit support Native messaging like chrome...? https://developer.chrome.com/apps/nativeMessaging https://developer.chrome.com/apps/nativeMessaging
The_rationalist 7y ago
It's fascinating to see how pathetic this roadmap is. The totality (100%) of their planned features are already available on chromium. Guess what, even after that the chromium of today (not 2020) still has an order of magnitude more features, optimisations and testing. In human hours wise, comparing the number of full-time safari developers vs the number of full-time chromium (Google, Microsoft, opera, etc) developers is like comparing a third world country vs the USA GDP. Or more exactly: 217,369 commits vs 835,383 commits! Apple should just be rational and make the same synergistic move as Microsoft: migrate to chromium. It would save them R&W (reinventing the wheel) money, and they could allocate it to true R&D, allowing the web to move forward for making the world a better place. If for whatever reason they wanted to opt out of some chromium features such as PWA they could still do it. With such absurd politics, I wonder how Apple survived through history. Indeed the lack of rationality from the demand must help and irrational supply to thrive.
- The_rationalist 7y ago
  Readers don't feel in accordance with my analysis. Sadly no thoughts have yet been outputed..
- Razengan 7y ago
  > Apple should just be rational and make the same synergistic move as Microsoft: migrate to chromium. It would save them R&W (reinventing the wheel) money, and they could allocate it to true R&D, allowing the web to move forward for making the world a better place. Chromium is a descendant of WebKit in the first place... > With such absurd politics, I wonder how Apple survived through history. Because users agree with them.
  - The_rationalist 7y ago
    Chromium is a descendant of WebKit in the first place... And safari is a descendant of KHTML, double standard I guess? The world change.
- hirsin 7y ago
  Note that the logged in API is not supported in Chrom(e|ium). That WI be a big deal when finished because it will help with user privacy without breaking things.
SiVal 7y ago
Apple apparently hates the name "progressive web apps", so how about: "offline web apps" or "installable web apps" or just "unrestricted web apps"? I'd like those names more, too. Regardless of the name, where is WebKit's commitment to joining Google, Mozilla, Microsoft, and countless web developers in making web apps first-class apps on iOS? Apple keeps silently "considering" and "accidentally" messing up various aspects of web app support, while strictly prohibiting browsers that work well. By prohibiting high-quality browsers, Apple pushes developers toward Apple-proprietary "native" technologies--those that are both allowed to be the only things that work well on Apple devices and are NOT allowed to work anywhere else. Two WebKit goals I'd like to see for 2020: (1) Allow non-WebKit browsers on iOS (start outperforming your competition instead of merely banning your competition), and (2) Make iOS the best platform for powerful web apps instead of the worst, the leader instead of the spoiler.
- aphextron 7y ago
  >where is WebKit's commitment to joining Google, Mozilla, Microsoft, and countless web developers in making web apps first-class apps on iOS? PWAs are a Google initiative for Android phones, with Mozilla and Microsoft simply following suit to get their products into Google's platform. Apple doesn't have that problem. They have their own platform with their own goals in mind. Non-native experiences are strictly inferior to native, and they know that. With quality being Apple's primary differentiator in the market, it only makes sense that they would take an extremely measured approach here.
  - SahAssar 7y ago
    PWA is not a google-only thing, and if apple has better ideas for the implementation they should propose those, not implement a half-baked, buggy implementation of the standard agreed by all others years ago. Native vs non-native is a red herring, there are performant webapps and slow native apps. There are accessible webapps and non-accessible native apps. If performance, accessibility or quality was the goal they would have stricter controls on their own store (as in not allowing apps that are basically "webpage-wrapped-in-webview" apps), as it is it seems that the goal is vendor lock-in and the revenue from in-app purchases.
jpincheira 7y ago
I find it incredible that MediaStream Recording is still not out there on WebKit. They have taken so long to ship this. There's an open ticket[1] since 2012, and we still don't really know if they will implement this for sure on 2020, while Opera, Chrome, and Firefox already support this for years. This is the main reason why we at Standups don't support video recording on Safari[2]. They are on the same level as Microsoft Edge, which also does not support video recording. It's hard for me to understand they did not want to catch up with the main players. [1] https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85851 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85851 [2] https://standups.io/help/not-using-chrome/ https://standups.io/help/not-using-chrome/
scottdeto 7y ago
What is "logged in API"?
- hirsin 7y ago
  They broke most federated auth scenarios with ITP, so there needs to be a way for auth to flow between websites in a way that allows users to consent and control it. The logged in API basically takes your auth state (to a first estimate) out of the 3rd party cookies and into the browser. The browser then understands when to reinject them. Ad networks lose tracking via 3p cookies, but you stay logged in to your accounts.
greatjack613 7y ago
In response to all those complaining about no competing browsers on IOS. Why doesn't someone compile chromium for ios and then publish it using AltStore? https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/master/docs/ios/build_instructions.md https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/master/docs... https://altstore.io/ https://altstore.io/
- earenndil 7y ago
  IOS requires all native code be signed so JIT wouldn't work. It would be a possibility on a jailbroken device, but someone would have to make a port.
  - why-oh-why 7y ago
    Isn’t that the whole point of AltStore? Apple certainly didn’t sign the GameBoy emulator available on AltStore. The problem in this case is effort. It’s not that easy to port a browser effectively.

170 points by tompic823 7y ago

Pardon the all-too-typical off topic: woa, Trac! I haven't seen that in a long time. I have fond recollections of its customizability. Is it still being used in anger and improving, or is this just a legacy system we're looking at?

rwmj 7y ago
Trac was/is truly to most awful bug tracking system. I mean a primary function of a bug tracking system should surely be to accept bug reports from users, yet Trac manages to make that the least discoverable and least usable feature. Even things like subscribing to an existing bug report or listing bugs are very hard to find. I would say "impossible" for ordinary people, but will get accused of exaggerating, but go and look at a Trac-based bug tracking system some time to see what I mean. One at random: https://trac.osgeo.org/geos https://trac.osgeo.org/geos
- kick 7y ago
  Accepting bug reports from users isn't necessarily a goal of bug trackers: in some workflows mailing lists are better for unconfirmed bugs, the actual bug tracker is for confirmed bugs (read: not submitted by users). It works better that way a large amount of the time.
  - rwmj 7y ago
    You certainly want a good way to sort, classify, combine and remove reported bugs (which Trac also makes awful), but you should never put up barriers to accepting bug reports. My rule of thumb is that every bug that someone reports affects 9 other users who couldn't/didn't report it. (Probably with Trac it's 1:99 because of how difficult it is to use.)
    - kick 7y ago
      If you tell people to submit bugs to a mailing list, that means that devs will manually confirm bugs before putting them onto the bug tracker: this gives an incentive to get them taken care of faster, because right as it's added, someone who knows the codebase has a general idea of what's wrong. Mail is standard, so it's not really a barrier. It kind of lessens the Caps-Lock Warriors of Bugzilla-like systems, though.
      - rwmj 7y ago
        Then they have to subscribe to the mailing list, which is another set of extra steps. Some people only know the web exists and don't even know mailing lists are a thing.
        kick 7y ago
        url: projectpage.tld/bugs Hi! If you're here, you must have found a bug. Send an email to XXX@projectpage.tld describing the bug, and we'll see to fixing it as fast as we can, and we'll alert you when we've started working on it! You don't have to have them subscribe, necessarily.
        rwmj 7y ago
        Which is basically what I said in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21490182 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21490182 Never put up barriers to accepting bug reports. Now does Trac help in any of this? No.
        kick 7y ago
        Trac is better than the GitHub/Bugzilla model, in any case, in my opinion.
        chrisseaton 7y ago
        As soon as someone thinks about reporting a bug, they’re already doing you a massive favour. Making them go away and write an email (which many people don’t often do any more) you’re already going to be testing their patience. You should be bending over backward to accept the report.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  WebKit uses Bugzilla: https://bugs.webkit.org https://bugs.webkit.org
  - rwmj 7y ago
    Bugzilla is also pretty awful (and I say this as someone who uses Red Hat's Bugzilla instance hourly in my job).
- scrollaway 7y ago
  Django still uses Trac. https://code.djangoproject.com/query https://code.djangoproject.com/query It really is awful.
paganel 7y ago
I’ve been using a Trac+Svn combination for my personal projects for 13 years now. I mainly use it for repository browsing, as I don’t do bug/task management for any of my personal projects, but it’s cool seeing repositories 11 or 12 years old. If it ain’t broke why would I fix it?

tmikaeld 7y ago

I've been implementing FIDO2 into my serverless application, finally there will be iOS support! It really is the golden authentication method, it's very thought through and incredibly easy to use (unfortunately not to implement though)

noja 7y ago
Can you recommend something to tie FIDO2 to generic web applications that don't support it directly?
- tmikaeld 7y ago
  Do you mean like a plugin or API? FIDO2 is not something you can "paste on" it has to be built-in to the login feature, but I guess for things like Wordpress there are hooks you can use. I know of no plugins or APIs you can use to add it, I guess if they appear they will be listed on Yubicos list [0] or on Github [1] [0] https://developers.yubico.com/Software_Projects/FIDO_U2F/U2F_Integration_Plug-ins/ https://developers.yubico.com/Software_Projects/FIDO_U2F/U2F... [1] https://github.com/search?q=FIDO2 https://github.com/search?q=FIDO2 Important: U2F cannot be used as the only authentication method, unlike FIDO2 which fully replace password & 2-factor.
jlokier 7y ago
FIDO2 is working, but I wouldn't call it "golden" at all. Tying authentication to a single device you can lose, especially one controlled by the device vendor not by yourself, sounds highly risk prone to me. As far as I'm aware, this is not yet a solved problem with WebauthN or FIDO2 standards - they simply recommend that you provide another authentication method or backup device for recovery, and leave it to you to figure out. (If I've got this completely wrong, I'd love to know.) Although not the same thing, in a similar vein we're already hearing about people locked out of bank accounts that were created in a phone app, and Google doc accounts that they can't log into any more. I wouldn't make the decision to run a business on the back of serverless services I could only get into with FIDO2 keys that are hidden in a vendor device that might die any day. For now, I'll stick with backed up SSH keys and very secret passphrases :-)

modeless 7y ago

The Web Push API is missing. I was hoping for that one.

alexcroox 7y ago
A lot of companies build a native version of their web app just for push notifications on iOS. Unfortunately I doubt we’ll see web push any time soon.
- soraminazuki 7y ago
  I avoid many native apps for the exact same reason. Too often I encounter apps that spam and spy on its users while providing no real benefit over a simple website.
xPaw 7y ago
Yeah that's a real bummer. Our open source web app [1] supports web push but it doesn't work on Apple's devices because they won't implement it. The situation on iOS is even worse, because every browser is forced to use Webkit under the hood. [1]: https://github.com/thelounge/thelounge https://github.com/thelounge/thelounge

asciident 7y ago

No WebP? Safari is about to become out of date, and websites will stop working for it. I'm using WebP on my websites with no fallback to jpeg/png at the end of the year.

mtgx 7y ago
At this point I'd be more concerned if they have no plans to support AV1 and AVIF. It would be nice if Apple played ball more with the open ecosystems instead of constantly being a thorn in everyone's sides and such a contrarian in everything.
Carpetsmoker 7y ago
Imagine being software developer with a sense of professionalism and dealing with your customers as they are, even if it's annoying a tad bit of extra work, instead of telling them to sod off if they're using a browser you don't like.
- mrmonkeyman 7y ago
  Imagine being an actual engineer and caring about correctness and stupid, oldskool stuff like that.
- wilsonrocks 7y ago
  While I Personaly wouldn't drop JPEG support yet... Do non-web software developers support every CPU architecture? Because I'm sure I've heard of apps that not run on macs, or just windows and not Raspberry Pis.
  - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
    You're trying to draw a comparison between app developers supporting multiple CPU architectures for their applications, and web developers continuing to use JPEG and PNG files for their web sites. I honestly just don't see how this comparison works.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 7y ago

riazrizvi 7y ago

I appreciate this declaration

cdbattags 7y ago

No matter what, any and all improvements to JSC will do wonders to the React Native ecosystem and it's nice to have a list of targets.

newscracker 7y ago

Will 2020 be the year when WebKit, and the Safari browsers by extension, will have full and proper support for Service Workers and PWAs on par with other browsers? I recall reading that Safari lags behind on it, and the allegation was that Apple prefers native apps and doesn’t want web apps to be more popular.

tannhaeuser 7y ago
Hopefully not. I'd hate to click through "This site wants to push new ads to you. Allow notifications?" modals on my shiny new iPhone (edit: in addition to content being constrained to poststamp-sized areas between GDPR banners).
- crooked-v 7y ago
  Notification support is already a thing, and is separate from PWA support.
- cglong 7y ago
  As opposed to every native app that says the same thing?
  - kick 7y ago
    Making the web suck more to match the native experience would be stupid. If people wanted the inconvenience of native apps, they'd use native apps.
    - lwansbrough 7y ago
      They do use native apps, because they offer these features and other conveniences only afforded to native apps within Apple’s control.
      - soraminazuki 7y ago
        Problems with Apple’s app review guidelines should be addressed by pushing for Apple to improve the guideline itself. Pushing for Apple to make their browser more adtech-friendly to the detriment of its users is not a solution.

cordite 7y ago

I'm glad that battery life is a top priority. Though WebP would still be nice to have..

berkut 7y ago
HEIF support in Safari would be nice...
pornel 7y ago
Apple already has HEIC codec on their systems, which is half the size of WebP. I'm curious why they're not exposing it to the Web. Is it because the codec is a ball of risky C++ code? Patent issues? Or because it's non-standard, and for once, they don't want to add a non-standard feature? There's also JPEG XL being standardized now, which gives similar compression while also supporting lossless conversion from the classic JPEG. This offers nicer migration path. With other formats conversion from JPEG is lossy, so you get smaller files partly because you lose quality in the process.
- ksec 7y ago
  > Patent issues? As far as I am aware HEVC issues is still not fully resolved. And likely unfit for Web usage.

altmind 7y ago

Hard to understand what each of this items mean since there is no tracking issue# mentioned. Some of items cannot even be googled, what's "Turbo DFG"?

sirn 7y ago
> Some of items cannot even be googled, what's "Turbo DFG"? Data Flow Graph, JavaScriptCore's optimizing JIT. https://webkit.org/blog/3362/introducing-the-webkit-ftl-jit/ https://webkit.org/blog/3362/introducing-the-webkit-ftl-jit/
- saagarjha 7y ago
  One of JavaScriptCore's optimizing JITs.
om2 7y ago
These are notes from a live presentation at the WebKit Contributors Meeting. All the items were explained live, there is only so much the notes can convey.
214896 7y ago
Search "WebKit dfg" = https://webkit.org/blog/3362/introducing-the-webkit-ftl-jit/ https://webkit.org/blog/3362/introducing-the-webkit-ftl-jit/ It's a layer of their JS pipeline.

rwmj 7y ago

We use WebKitGtk[1] (embedded WebKit) in our presentation software Tech Talk PSE[2]. It would be great if SVG rendering, used for diagrams, was of equal quality to Firefox, but unfortunately Firefox seems to render SVG in a far superior way so we usually have to convert to PNG files to make diagrams embed correctly. [1] https://webkitgtk.org/ https://webkitgtk.org/ [2] https://rwmj.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/tech-talk-pse-1-1-0/ https://rwmj.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/tech-talk-pse-1-1-0/

SiVal 7y ago
Unfortunately, converting to PNG doesn't work for interactive apps that use SVG as an interactive GUI instead of just a static vector image format. Of course, the user could just install Firefox (or Chrome) to get good-quality SVG support if Apple allowed it, which is why Apple doesn't allow it on iOS. After all, if Apple allowed you to freely choose a fully-working browser, they couldn't force you to use their Apple-only native technologies to get things to work well. It would be much harder to lock you and your customers (sorry, Apple reminds us that they are actually Apple's customers, NOT yours) into Apple's private world.
jwilk 7y ago
What software do you use for SVG→PNG conversion?

lwansbrough 7y ago

No mention of PWA features (specifically manifest/installation/web push) is so lame. Classic Apple politics.

suyash 7y ago
PWA is not one single thing that needs a special mention, bunch of features they have listed will account for a better cross platform web & mobile experience.
- lwansbrough 7y ago
  None of which particularly contribute to being able to supplant an iOS app with a PWA. Which is intentional on Apple’s part.
jitl 7y ago
Service Worker is the first step - they need to catch up there first. It’s on the list!
throwGuardian 7y ago
How will they force you into the $99/annum developer program, shaft you a cool 30%, play judge and jury to your ios, macOs app store submissions and reject your work at the first hint of competition, if all the useful PWA features just work on iOS? Lest you dream of software freedom on Apple devices, their sycophants and overzealous employees will gaslight you into believing it's all for user experience and security, and any incidental monopolistic/anti-competitive byproducts are wholly acceptable collateral damage when the betterment of iKind, ahem, mankind is at stake.
- threeseed 7y ago
  You need to understand that many of us like Apple's approach. We aren't looking for software "freedom" on our phones. We just want apps that are safe, curated, respectful of battery life and do not infringe on our privacy or user experience. Apple's approach gives us that. So by all means complain about app store submissions but as a developer I don't have sympathy for other developers who play loose and fast with the rules.

kmlx 7y ago

as is tradition already, webkit is missing: - full PWA - ServiceWorkers - VP8/9 - webvr - and many others this could all be mitigated if aapl would let us install custom non-webkit browsers on ios. unfortunately it seems we will need the courts to force aapl.

shantly 7y ago
Incidentally, is there a way to disable service workers on desktop Safari? Twitter’s went rogue the other day and started eating a whole core, non-stop. I don’t want or need them. Ever. Hopefully mobile safari doesn’t let developers do that to my phone, too.
xena 7y ago
iOS already has progressive web app support
- kmlx 7y ago
  not full support, no
acdha 7y ago
Who’d benefit if they did? iOS users would benefit from AV1 but the only thing VP8/9 would add for web users is security exposure and lower battery life. Everyone serving video on the web already has equivalent quality H.264/H.265 and the next big change should be moving into the future with AV1 rather than spending millions to implement previous generations of codecs. Similarly, as a developer I like the idea of Service Workers but as a user I’m forced to note that the only thing they seem to have added to my web experience are sites breaking in a way which requires more than a reload to fix.

bumblebritches5 7y ago

Hopefully completely refactoring it from the bottom up to have a good API.

mkurz 7y ago

Please finally implement the date and time input times! https://caniuse.com/#feat=input-datetime https://caniuse.com/#feat=input-datetime

paulddraper 7y ago
The fact that <input type="date"> still isn't a thing proves to me that semantic HTML, non-bloated JS bundles, etc. just will never happen.
- dbbk 7y ago
  It is a thing, just not in Safari

rptr_87 7y ago

Does webkit support Native messaging like chrome...? https://developer.chrome.com/apps/nativeMessaging https://developer.chrome.com/apps/nativeMessaging

The_rationalist 7y ago

It's fascinating to see how pathetic this roadmap is. The totality (100%) of their planned features are already available on chromium. Guess what, even after that the chromium of today (not 2020) still has an order of magnitude more features, optimisations and testing. In human hours wise, comparing the number of full-time safari developers vs the number of full-time chromium (Google, Microsoft, opera, etc) developers is like comparing a third world country vs the USA GDP. Or more exactly: 217,369 commits vs 835,383 commits! Apple should just be rational and make the same synergistic move as Microsoft: migrate to chromium. It would save them R&W (reinventing the wheel) money, and they could allocate it to true R&D, allowing the web to move forward for making the world a better place. If for whatever reason they wanted to opt out of some chromium features such as PWA they could still do it. With such absurd politics, I wonder how Apple survived through history. Indeed the lack of rationality from the demand must help and irrational supply to thrive.

The_rationalist 7y ago
Readers don't feel in accordance with my analysis. Sadly no thoughts have yet been outputed..
Razengan 7y ago
> Apple should just be rational and make the same synergistic move as Microsoft: migrate to chromium. It would save them R&W (reinventing the wheel) money, and they could allocate it to true R&D, allowing the web to move forward for making the world a better place. Chromium is a descendant of WebKit in the first place... > With such absurd politics, I wonder how Apple survived through history. Because users agree with them.
- The_rationalist 7y ago
  Chromium is a descendant of WebKit in the first place... And safari is a descendant of KHTML, double standard I guess? The world change.
hirsin 7y ago
Note that the logged in API is not supported in Chrom(e|ium). That WI be a big deal when finished because it will help with user privacy without breaking things.

SiVal 7y ago

Apple apparently hates the name "progressive web apps", so how about: "offline web apps" or "installable web apps" or just "unrestricted web apps"? I'd like those names more, too. Regardless of the name, where is WebKit's commitment to joining Google, Mozilla, Microsoft, and countless web developers in making web apps first-class apps on iOS? Apple keeps silently "considering" and "accidentally" messing up various aspects of web app support, while strictly prohibiting browsers that work well. By prohibiting high-quality browsers, Apple pushes developers toward Apple-proprietary "native" technologies--those that are both allowed to be the only things that work well on Apple devices and are NOT allowed to work anywhere else. Two WebKit goals I'd like to see for 2020: (1) Allow non-WebKit browsers on iOS (start outperforming your competition instead of merely banning your competition), and (2) Make iOS the best platform for powerful web apps instead of the worst, the leader instead of the spoiler.

aphextron 7y ago
>where is WebKit's commitment to joining Google, Mozilla, Microsoft, and countless web developers in making web apps first-class apps on iOS? PWAs are a Google initiative for Android phones, with Mozilla and Microsoft simply following suit to get their products into Google's platform. Apple doesn't have that problem. They have their own platform with their own goals in mind. Non-native experiences are strictly inferior to native, and they know that. With quality being Apple's primary differentiator in the market, it only makes sense that they would take an extremely measured approach here.
- SahAssar 7y ago
  PWA is not a google-only thing, and if apple has better ideas for the implementation they should propose those, not implement a half-baked, buggy implementation of the standard agreed by all others years ago. Native vs non-native is a red herring, there are performant webapps and slow native apps. There are accessible webapps and non-accessible native apps. If performance, accessibility or quality was the goal they would have stricter controls on their own store (as in not allowing apps that are basically "webpage-wrapped-in-webview" apps), as it is it seems that the goal is vendor lock-in and the revenue from in-app purchases.

jpincheira 7y ago

I find it incredible that MediaStream Recording is still not out there on WebKit. They have taken so long to ship this. There's an open ticket[1] since 2012, and we still don't really know if they will implement this for sure on 2020, while Opera, Chrome, and Firefox already support this for years. This is the main reason why we at Standups don't support video recording on Safari[2]. They are on the same level as Microsoft Edge, which also does not support video recording. It's hard for me to understand they did not want to catch up with the main players. [1] https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85851 https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85851 [2] https://standups.io/help/not-using-chrome/ https://standups.io/help/not-using-chrome/

scottdeto 7y ago

What is "logged in API"?

hirsin 7y ago
They broke most federated auth scenarios with ITP, so there needs to be a way for auth to flow between websites in a way that allows users to consent and control it. The logged in API basically takes your auth state (to a first estimate) out of the 3rd party cookies and into the browser. The browser then understands when to reinject them. Ad networks lose tracking via 3p cookies, but you stay logged in to your accounts.

greatjack613 7y ago

In response to all those complaining about no competing browsers on IOS. Why doesn't someone compile chromium for ios and then publish it using AltStore? https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/master/docs/ios/build_instructions.md https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/master/docs... https://altstore.io/ https://altstore.io/

earenndil 7y ago
IOS requires all native code be signed so JIT wouldn't work. It would be a possibility on a jailbroken device, but someone would have to make a port.
- why-oh-why 7y ago
  Isn’t that the whole point of AltStore? Apple certainly didn’t sign the GameBoy emulator available on AltStore. The problem in this case is effort. It’s not that easy to port a browser effectively.