6 ms·

I'm not stating a personal opinion here but, for many people wearing a MAGA hat is equivalent to supporting this kind of speech: “When Mexico sends its people,

by pera 7y ago

I'm not stating a personal opinion here but, for many people wearing a MAGA hat is equivalent to supporting this kind of speech: “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best, they’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.” - Donald Trump, 2015 If for instance you were from Mexico, it could be discouraging to attend the presentation of someone who believes that your ethnicity implies you are, most likely, a criminal. I personally wouldn't ask a question to someone who believes I am a rapist based on my ethnicity. Would you?

ghostpepper 7y ago
Didn't he say "their rapists" not "they’re rapists"? Subtle difference but it does significantly shrink the group being called rapists from the entire country of Mexico to only immigrants.
- masonic 7y ago
  "there are rapists"
- PantsyMcPants 7y ago
  Weirdest bit of apologetics ever. Making small tactical adjustments that reduces the spread of statements target, but has little effect on its meaning or effect.
- darkforest1336 7y ago
  Not even immigrants, just the illegal ones.
lliamander 7y ago
And yet, for a Republican, he has record high support among the Hispanic population.
- pera 7y ago
  What's your point?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - lliamander 7y ago
    That perhaps Hispanic people are not necessarily going to be off put by people in MAGA hats.
    - pera 7y ago
      Sure, perhaps some wouldn't, but it seems that from the point of view of the Linux Foundation what the majority would provably feel was more important.
      - lliamander 7y ago
        Regardless of what they might feel (which, contrary to your assertion, has yet to be proven) the actual threat posed by a middle-aged man who once wore a MAGA is essentially zero. Protecting participants against actual harm and harassment is a legitimate reason for revoking a person's ticket to an event. Trying to pretend that you don't have to share a country with millions of people who voted for its sitting president is not.
        pera 7y ago
        I personally share this sentiment of yours; I particularly dislike how "cancel culture" is increasing divide and lack of dialog in our societies. In my opinion though this was still a dilemma, which was obviously poorly handled (Twitter is in no way the correct place for this sort of things). My initial post simply attempted to answer your question by explaining the rationality I believe the Linux Foundation followed here.
manigandham 7y ago
That last sentence in your post is an incorrect assumption and isn't true. Also wearing a hat is not the same as speech. All this offense before understanding and flinging crazy associations around does nothing but cause more divide.
- pera 7y ago
  > That last sentence in your post is an incorrect assumption and isn't true. I believe you have misread that last sentence as I didn't make any sort of assumption. > Also wearing a hat is not the same as speech. I never said that, but wearing an iconic hat created, used, and sold by a person who said what I previously quoted can obviously be interpreted as supporting such speech. This however, as I have already said, is not my personal view. Could you clarify what "crazy associations" I made?
  - manigandham 7y ago
    > "someone who believes that your ethnicity implies you are, most likely, a criminal" > "believes I am a rapist based on my ethnicity" This is your assumption. Nobody said this. Nobody believes this. The stretched association is then calling anyone who wears a hat to also be a supporter of this incorrect assumption. That's the problem. It's creating outrage against a made-up position that nobody holds.
    - pera 7y ago
      You are clearly misreading what I wrote, please read it again: I do not believe that all people who wears a MAGA hat believes in those ideas, what I said is that many people do (since that's the sort of rhetoric Trump often uses). > Nobody said this Yes, Trump said that Mexican immigrants bring drugs and crime, that's literally what he stated in that speech. In a similar fashion he also wanted "a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering" the US: https://web.archive.org/web/20151208051322/https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement-on-preventing-muslim-immigration https://web.archive.org/web/20151208051322/https://www.donal... It is extremely disingenuous though to say that "nobody" who wears that hat associates Mexican immigrants (and other demographics) with crime.
smsm42 7y ago
For some people, sure. For some people, support for Bernie Sanders is support for the communist ideology that murdered millions of people, and as a person who personally suffered under a socialist regime I would certainly be uncomfortable in the presence of the socialist or communist symbolics. Does it mean Linux Foundation has an obligation to exclude anybody who ever proclaimed sympathies to Sanders and other socialists, to create safe space for me (in case I'd ever want to visit Linux Foundation sponsored event) and people like me who, personally or through their family and relatives, suffered under socialist and communist regimes? Of course, singling out communism is not fair - I could name many other ideologies that some people may be very uncomfortable with, especially if you pick out the worst statements you could find, interpret it in worst and most uncharitable light possible and pretend that anybody who have ever agreed with anything in that ideology also fully agrees with that maximally uncharitable interpretation. It would be rather sad safe place if that policy would be carried to its logical conclusion. But of course it would never happen. I can't imagine anybody being kicked out of a conference for ever wearing (even outside of the conference context) Che Guevara t-shirt or being photographed in presence of hammer-and-sickle flag (and I'm not even talking about religious symbols, most Abrahamic religions at least having very dark pasts and rather ambiguous present). It would be carried out arbitrarily and capriciously, following where current political winds are blowing and what tribal pressure groups happen to be more vocal and scare the organizers the most. That makes it not only a bad policy, but also a hypocritical one.
- pera 7y ago
  I am not sure that I understand your point: as you probably know, Bernie Sanders is not a communist, so why would anyone associate his persona with the horrors of authoritarian communist regimes?
  - smsm42 7y ago
    The difference between "communist", "socialist" and "democratic socialist" is mostly marketing branding. Same ideology, different wrapping. But my point is not about Sanders but about the fact that people disagree on a lot of things, and if open source organizations start excluding people because somebody could disagree with them on political questions we'll get into a bad place quite fast.

by pera 7y ago

ghostpepper 7y ago

Didn't he say "their rapists" not "they’re rapists"? Subtle difference but it does significantly shrink the group being called rapists from the entire country of Mexico to only immigrants.

masonic 7y ago
"there are rapists"
PantsyMcPants 7y ago
Weirdest bit of apologetics ever. Making small tactical adjustments that reduces the spread of statements target, but has little effect on its meaning or effect.
darkforest1336 7y ago
Not even immigrants, just the illegal ones.

lliamander 7y ago

And yet, for a Republican, he has record high support among the Hispanic population.

pera 7y ago
What's your point?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- lliamander 7y ago
  That perhaps Hispanic people are not necessarily going to be off put by people in MAGA hats.
  - pera 7y ago
    Sure, perhaps some wouldn't, but it seems that from the point of view of the Linux Foundation what the majority would provably feel was more important.
    - lliamander 7y ago
      Regardless of what they might feel (which, contrary to your assertion, has yet to be proven) the actual threat posed by a middle-aged man who once wore a MAGA is essentially zero. Protecting participants against actual harm and harassment is a legitimate reason for revoking a person's ticket to an event. Trying to pretend that you don't have to share a country with millions of people who voted for its sitting president is not.
      - pera 7y ago
        I personally share this sentiment of yours; I particularly dislike how "cancel culture" is increasing divide and lack of dialog in our societies. In my opinion though this was still a dilemma, which was obviously poorly handled (Twitter is in no way the correct place for this sort of things). My initial post simply attempted to answer your question by explaining the rationality I believe the Linux Foundation followed here.

manigandham 7y ago

That last sentence in your post is an incorrect assumption and isn't true. Also wearing a hat is not the same as speech. All this offense before understanding and flinging crazy associations around does nothing but cause more divide.

pera 7y ago
> That last sentence in your post is an incorrect assumption and isn't true. I believe you have misread that last sentence as I didn't make any sort of assumption. > Also wearing a hat is not the same as speech. I never said that, but wearing an iconic hat created, used, and sold by a person who said what I previously quoted can obviously be interpreted as supporting such speech. This however, as I have already said, is not my personal view. Could you clarify what "crazy associations" I made?
- manigandham 7y ago
  > "someone who believes that your ethnicity implies you are, most likely, a criminal" > "believes I am a rapist based on my ethnicity" This is your assumption. Nobody said this. Nobody believes this. The stretched association is then calling anyone who wears a hat to also be a supporter of this incorrect assumption. That's the problem. It's creating outrage against a made-up position that nobody holds.
  - pera 7y ago
    You are clearly misreading what I wrote, please read it again: I do not believe that all people who wears a MAGA hat believes in those ideas, what I said is that many people do (since that's the sort of rhetoric Trump often uses). > Nobody said this Yes, Trump said that Mexican immigrants bring drugs and crime, that's literally what he stated in that speech. In a similar fashion he also wanted "a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering" the US: https://web.archive.org/web/20151208051322/https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-statement-on-preventing-muslim-immigration https://web.archive.org/web/20151208051322/https://www.donal... It is extremely disingenuous though to say that "nobody" who wears that hat associates Mexican immigrants (and other demographics) with crime.

smsm42 7y ago

For some people, sure. For some people, support for Bernie Sanders is support for the communist ideology that murdered millions of people, and as a person who personally suffered under a socialist regime I would certainly be uncomfortable in the presence of the socialist or communist symbolics. Does it mean Linux Foundation has an obligation to exclude anybody who ever proclaimed sympathies to Sanders and other socialists, to create safe space for me (in case I'd ever want to visit Linux Foundation sponsored event) and people like me who, personally or through their family and relatives, suffered under socialist and communist regimes? Of course, singling out communism is not fair - I could name many other ideologies that some people may be very uncomfortable with, especially if you pick out the worst statements you could find, interpret it in worst and most uncharitable light possible and pretend that anybody who have ever agreed with anything in that ideology also fully agrees with that maximally uncharitable interpretation. It would be rather sad safe place if that policy would be carried to its logical conclusion. But of course it would never happen. I can't imagine anybody being kicked out of a conference for ever wearing (even outside of the conference context) Che Guevara t-shirt or being photographed in presence of hammer-and-sickle flag (and I'm not even talking about religious symbols, most Abrahamic religions at least having very dark pasts and rather ambiguous present). It would be carried out arbitrarily and capriciously, following where current political winds are blowing and what tribal pressure groups happen to be more vocal and scare the organizers the most. That makes it not only a bad policy, but also a hypocritical one.

pera 7y ago
I am not sure that I understand your point: as you probably know, Bernie Sanders is not a communist, so why would anyone associate his persona with the horrors of authoritarian communist regimes?
- smsm42 7y ago
  The difference between "communist", "socialist" and "democratic socialist" is mostly marketing branding. Same ideology, different wrapping. But my point is not about Sanders but about the fact that people disagree on a lot of things, and if open source organizations start excluding people because somebody could disagree with them on political questions we'll get into a bad place quite fast.