8 ms·

In Norway we place plastic over the (food) landfill, gather the methane and use it for electricity production. When there is no more methane the same landfill i

In Norway we place plastic over the (food) landfill, gather the methane and use it for electricity production. When there is no more methane the same landfill is used as soil for food production.

hanniabu 7y ago
That's a great idea, but also requires an organized garbage collection system where items are separated at the source (consumer). Unfortunately the US doesn't have such a system in place, which is partially a social issue.
- samcheng 7y ago
  It's very common in the bay area to put biodegradable compost (paper towels, food waste, pumpkins, etc.) into the third green bin, along with the yard waste. The other two bins are for recycling and other garbage. It's not very difficult to segregate compostables, and I'm confident the rest of the US will catch up soon.
  - blacksmith_tb 7y ago
    Yes, same in Portland, OR. In our case we're incentivized by having compost and recycling pick ups weekly, but garbage only every other week. So people who choose not to sort suffer...
    - ihaveajob 7y ago
      That's a genius approach, and one that I think would be pretty reasonable to most folks. Fairly often I don't put out the gray trash bin because it's not even half full, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.
      - Frondo 7y ago
        Oh, and I was there when they made that switch, and you wouldn't believe the complaints people had. Endless litanies about how awful it was that trash was only going out once every two weeks. In time, of course, everyone adapted. But it was pretty amazing at the time, for such a relatively painless change in behavior. You'd think they were being asked to cut off a limb and put it out every week.
    - cameldrv 7y ago
      We have something similar here -- everyone gets a giant recycling and compost bin, but you pay for the trash bin, and bigger costs more. The problem is that it just leads people to put non recyclable things in the recycling bin. You wind up with a bunch contaminated mixed waste that just gets sent to the landfill anyhow because China won't take this low quality mixed stream anymore.
      - fludlight 7y ago
        This is what my neighbors in the Bay Area do. They just don’t care. A better solution would be to reduce waste by banning single use plastic, taxing non-organic packaging (more-so than now), and taxing consumer goods on some combination of weight, volume, non-organic content, and toxic content. None of this is particularly popular, especially in certain communities.
        octorian 7y ago
        Getting rid of single-use plastic would help. However, the "War on Plastic Straws" pisses me off to no end. (Especially since its often done along-side a plethora of needlessly single-use plastic to the point that its just a PR gesture.) Getting rid of non-organic packaging would help even more. Dealing with packaging materials is one of my biggest frustrations when trying to get rid of boxes. However, this is very much a "long tail" sort of problem.
      - octorian 7y ago
        When you read the rules for what you're allowed to put in that recycling bin, its a tiny fraction of your actual waste. That, combined with the fact that not everyone putting waste from your house into those bins is going to read the rules, is why it all gets contaminated. I keep feeling, more and more, that the whole notion that we can actually reduce "trash" by adding more and more narrowly-defined recycling/composting categories is nothing but a load of BS.
  - ihaveajob 7y ago
    It also serves as an incentive, if you have a small yard or even some potted plants, that the city will deliver compost every month for resident to collect.
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    The UK came up with an even more ridiculous system. Many regions were nicely moving to a system with separated organic waste - kitchen scraps, garden waste and so on, which were composted. Tory party austerity meant many regions have subsequently scrapped, or charge homeowners for the organic waste collection. Overall result is many homeowners now have a plastic wheelie bin they never use any more, and organic waste goes in the landfill bin. Putting us in a worse place than before we started. Tory party is busy promoting how environmental they are in their electioneering ...
    - punnerud 7y ago
      And a lot of the UK landfill is shipped to Norway (OSLO/Klemetsrud) because we don’t have enough waste to burn. The heat is used to generate electricity and heat most buildings in Oslo, both industry and homes. (This was new to me until I talked with one of the managers at the plant one year ago)
- briandear 7y ago
  We have sort at the source in Mountain View, CA and across the Bay Area. I don’t personally care about going into great detail separating minutiae. I have better things to do. Recology (the company that handles waste for much of the Bay Area,) has a billion dollars in revenue and a no-bid contract with San Francisco, let them figure it out. They make a profit that’s twice the industry average and as an ESOP, they avoid most corporate income taxes. The president of Recology even said that competitive bidding would put him out of business. I dutifully put my plastics and cardboard into the correct bin, but I’m not going to go out of my way to help some private company making money hand over fist with a corrupt sweetheart deal with the city: a no-bid, no franchise fee deal with San Francisco in perpetuity. They want the money, they can sort the f!$@ing garbage. https://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/10/us/10bcstevens.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/10/us/10bcstevens.html?_r=0
  - 205guy 7y ago
    > "I don’t personally care about going into great detail separating minutiae. I have better things to do." As other comments in this thread have pointed out, people are resistant to "fixing" their waste stream. I think this is a serious lack of personal responsibility. There is nothing about consumption that absolves the consumer of proper disposal. Sure, we want local government to make it as easy and efficient as possible, but best practices are leaning toward sorting, and I think every person has to step up to the practice.
  - Twixes 7y ago
    This is a reason to be furious about lack of public oversight over budget, not recycling. Proper recycling still is our (yours too) duty to the planet and it doesn't cost you any money.
tastyfreeze 7y ago
That sounds very efficient. In the US organic and non-organic "kitchen" waste is often combined. While it is becoming more common to separate compostable materials from others it is still more of an exception. Many landfills do harvest methane from the combined heap of trash. However, after methane production ends we are still left with compost with tons of plastic.
- CryptoBanker 7y ago
  Compost can be used, plastic can be reused, no?
  - blacksmith_tb 7y ago
    But when they're mixed together neither can be easily used, and separating them at that point is difficult.
- BurningFrog 7y ago
  You can think of the plastic as sequestered carbon!
  - labawi 7y ago
    Until it starts burning, or should I say smoldering. Then you can think of it as a multi-ton slow-release toxic gas grenade.
    - bregma 7y ago
      Volatile Organic Compounds. Hey, it says "organic" right in the name. It must be good for the environment.
  - SirLuxuryYacht 7y ago
    Sure, if you forget the fact that it used to be much much more "sequestered" before we spent energy extracting those hydrocarbons. Not to mention that the plastic will eventually erode into the oceans since it isn't buried deep enough. Kinda like a time release pill, except for microplastic pollution.
ping_pong 7y ago
How is the land not contaminated with chemicals, poisons, etc? Do they test for all of that?
mogadsheu 7y ago
I interned for a landfill gas capture company a long time ago. Apparently it’s quite tough to make payback on the investment. If value is applied to the degradation and GHG abatement, some groups might find it worthwhile.
- doc_gunthrop 7y ago
  In this case it sounds like something that could be subsidized by the government if it provides a net benefit to the general populace (by reducing greenhouse gases in the atmosphere).
  - brandmeyer 7y ago
    Flaring it early would produce most of the GHG reduction benefit. The resulting CO2 has a tiny fraction of the total warming potential of the unburned CH3. For cases where it isn't economical to recover the methane, the public still benefits.
    - hcknwscommenter 7y ago
      Most of the GHG reduction benefit in terms of the GHG contribution of the methane itself. However, there is also the benefit of the fossil fuel combustion that is displaced if you collect and burn for power. This is exactly the sort of thing that a carbon tax would incentivize if it were at all economically sensible.
      - gbrown 7y ago
        So long as there's a positive carbon return on adding the extra infrastructure. There very well may be, but adding pipes to burn off excess methane is way easier than generating and transporting electricity.
- cameronh90 7y ago
  Another argument for a comprehensive GHG emissions tax...
acomjean 7y ago
The US does the same... sometimes. Some states(US) cap landfills with large sheets of plastic (the new ones have plastic on the bottom, making a "giant bag") and punch holes for venting methane and other exhaust gasses. They vent because the gas is flammable and having it build up under a sheet of plastic is risky. Landfills catch on fire frequently. [2] Some sites collect the gas and burn it, but it isn't common. You can see the venting tubes on this photo of liner repair after lightning strike...[1] [1]https://comanco.com/blog/comanco-makes-liner-repairs-on-closed-landfill-after-lightning-strike/ https://comanco.com/blog/comanco-makes-liner-repairs-on-clos... [2]http://www.mowastecoalition.org/resources/Documents/2018%20conference/2018%20%20MWCC%20-%20Landfill%20Fire%20Presentation.pdf http://www.mowastecoalition.org/resources/Documents/2018%20c...
- labawi 7y ago
  I think (hope) GP means landfills with biological waste only, generating methane in lieu of composting. I wouldn't want to grow food on our mixed use landfills.
  - greglindahl 7y ago
    California has quite a few composting landfills. So GP is calling for the same technology that's already used in parts of California, perhaps covering more people than the entire population of Norway (5.4 million people) Map of composting facilities in California: https://www.biocycle.net/2018/03/12/california-composting/ https://www.biocycle.net/2018/03/12/california-composting/
    - labawi 7y ago
      Composting is aerated, generates soil and CO₂, not methane. Anaerobic digestion generates methane and soil, though AFAIK of a lesser quality. Per article, California does have AD facilities, though doesn't mention composting/AD ratio. We can speculate what punnerud meant, but I would point out that Norway has some kind of a landfill ban. IIUC, they have (almost) no classical mixed-use landfills, and nearly all landfilled organic waste is actually in an anaerobic digestion or composting "facility".
dubyah 7y ago
Landfill gas to power used to be more prevalent, but an AQMD rule change to reduce NOx made them switch to flaring instead because it couldn't compete against subsidized renewables. http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-methane-gas-conundrum-20161021-snap-story.html http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-methane-gas-co...
stolsvik 7y ago
I believe it is mandatory to capture it, and either find a use for it (electricity or heat, or both), or you must flare it.
loeg 7y ago
> In Norway we place plastic over the (food) landfill, gather the methane That is also common for US landfills.

In Norway we place plastic over the (food) landfill, gather the methane and use it for electricity production. When there is no more methane the same landfill is used as soil for food production.

hanniabu 7y ago

That's a great idea, but also requires an organized garbage collection system where items are separated at the source (consumer). Unfortunately the US doesn't have such a system in place, which is partially a social issue.

samcheng 7y ago
It's very common in the bay area to put biodegradable compost (paper towels, food waste, pumpkins, etc.) into the third green bin, along with the yard waste. The other two bins are for recycling and other garbage. It's not very difficult to segregate compostables, and I'm confident the rest of the US will catch up soon.
- blacksmith_tb 7y ago
  Yes, same in Portland, OR. In our case we're incentivized by having compost and recycling pick ups weekly, but garbage only every other week. So people who choose not to sort suffer...
  - ihaveajob 7y ago
    That's a genius approach, and one that I think would be pretty reasonable to most folks. Fairly often I don't put out the gray trash bin because it's not even half full, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.
    - Frondo 7y ago
      Oh, and I was there when they made that switch, and you wouldn't believe the complaints people had. Endless litanies about how awful it was that trash was only going out once every two weeks. In time, of course, everyone adapted. But it was pretty amazing at the time, for such a relatively painless change in behavior. You'd think they were being asked to cut off a limb and put it out every week.
  - cameldrv 7y ago
    We have something similar here -- everyone gets a giant recycling and compost bin, but you pay for the trash bin, and bigger costs more. The problem is that it just leads people to put non recyclable things in the recycling bin. You wind up with a bunch contaminated mixed waste that just gets sent to the landfill anyhow because China won't take this low quality mixed stream anymore.
    - fludlight 7y ago
      This is what my neighbors in the Bay Area do. They just don’t care. A better solution would be to reduce waste by banning single use plastic, taxing non-organic packaging (more-so than now), and taxing consumer goods on some combination of weight, volume, non-organic content, and toxic content. None of this is particularly popular, especially in certain communities.
      - octorian 7y ago
        Getting rid of single-use plastic would help. However, the "War on Plastic Straws" pisses me off to no end. (Especially since its often done along-side a plethora of needlessly single-use plastic to the point that its just a PR gesture.) Getting rid of non-organic packaging would help even more. Dealing with packaging materials is one of my biggest frustrations when trying to get rid of boxes. However, this is very much a "long tail" sort of problem.
    - octorian 7y ago
      When you read the rules for what you're allowed to put in that recycling bin, its a tiny fraction of your actual waste. That, combined with the fact that not everyone putting waste from your house into those bins is going to read the rules, is why it all gets contaminated. I keep feeling, more and more, that the whole notion that we can actually reduce "trash" by adding more and more narrowly-defined recycling/composting categories is nothing but a load of BS.
- ihaveajob 7y ago
  It also serves as an incentive, if you have a small yard or even some potted plants, that the city will deliver compost every month for resident to collect.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  The UK came up with an even more ridiculous system. Many regions were nicely moving to a system with separated organic waste - kitchen scraps, garden waste and so on, which were composted. Tory party austerity meant many regions have subsequently scrapped, or charge homeowners for the organic waste collection. Overall result is many homeowners now have a plastic wheelie bin they never use any more, and organic waste goes in the landfill bin. Putting us in a worse place than before we started. Tory party is busy promoting how environmental they are in their electioneering ...
  - punnerud 7y ago
    And a lot of the UK landfill is shipped to Norway (OSLO/Klemetsrud) because we don’t have enough waste to burn. The heat is used to generate electricity and heat most buildings in Oslo, both industry and homes. (This was new to me until I talked with one of the managers at the plant one year ago)
briandear 7y ago
We have sort at the source in Mountain View, CA and across the Bay Area. I don’t personally care about going into great detail separating minutiae. I have better things to do. Recology (the company that handles waste for much of the Bay Area,) has a billion dollars in revenue and a no-bid contract with San Francisco, let them figure it out. They make a profit that’s twice the industry average and as an ESOP, they avoid most corporate income taxes. The president of Recology even said that competitive bidding would put him out of business. I dutifully put my plastics and cardboard into the correct bin, but I’m not going to go out of my way to help some private company making money hand over fist with a corrupt sweetheart deal with the city: a no-bid, no franchise fee deal with San Francisco in perpetuity. They want the money, they can sort the f!$@ing garbage. https://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/10/us/10bcstevens.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/10/us/10bcstevens.html?_r=0
- 205guy 7y ago
  > "I don’t personally care about going into great detail separating minutiae. I have better things to do." As other comments in this thread have pointed out, people are resistant to "fixing" their waste stream. I think this is a serious lack of personal responsibility. There is nothing about consumption that absolves the consumer of proper disposal. Sure, we want local government to make it as easy and efficient as possible, but best practices are leaning toward sorting, and I think every person has to step up to the practice.
- Twixes 7y ago
  This is a reason to be furious about lack of public oversight over budget, not recycling. Proper recycling still is our (yours too) duty to the planet and it doesn't cost you any money.

tastyfreeze 7y ago

That sounds very efficient. In the US organic and non-organic "kitchen" waste is often combined. While it is becoming more common to separate compostable materials from others it is still more of an exception. Many landfills do harvest methane from the combined heap of trash. However, after methane production ends we are still left with compost with tons of plastic.

CryptoBanker 7y ago
Compost can be used, plastic can be reused, no?
- blacksmith_tb 7y ago
  But when they're mixed together neither can be easily used, and separating them at that point is difficult.
BurningFrog 7y ago
You can think of the plastic as sequestered carbon!
- labawi 7y ago
  Until it starts burning, or should I say smoldering. Then you can think of it as a multi-ton slow-release toxic gas grenade.
  - bregma 7y ago
    Volatile Organic Compounds. Hey, it says "organic" right in the name. It must be good for the environment.
- SirLuxuryYacht 7y ago
  Sure, if you forget the fact that it used to be much much more "sequestered" before we spent energy extracting those hydrocarbons. Not to mention that the plastic will eventually erode into the oceans since it isn't buried deep enough. Kinda like a time release pill, except for microplastic pollution.

ping_pong 7y ago

How is the land not contaminated with chemicals, poisons, etc? Do they test for all of that?

mogadsheu 7y ago

I interned for a landfill gas capture company a long time ago. Apparently it’s quite tough to make payback on the investment. If value is applied to the degradation and GHG abatement, some groups might find it worthwhile.

doc_gunthrop 7y ago
In this case it sounds like something that could be subsidized by the government if it provides a net benefit to the general populace (by reducing greenhouse gases in the atmosphere).
- brandmeyer 7y ago
  Flaring it early would produce most of the GHG reduction benefit. The resulting CO2 has a tiny fraction of the total warming potential of the unburned CH3. For cases where it isn't economical to recover the methane, the public still benefits.
  - hcknwscommenter 7y ago
    Most of the GHG reduction benefit in terms of the GHG contribution of the methane itself. However, there is also the benefit of the fossil fuel combustion that is displaced if you collect and burn for power. This is exactly the sort of thing that a carbon tax would incentivize if it were at all economically sensible.
    - gbrown 7y ago
      So long as there's a positive carbon return on adding the extra infrastructure. There very well may be, but adding pipes to burn off excess methane is way easier than generating and transporting electricity.
cameronh90 7y ago
Another argument for a comprehensive GHG emissions tax...

acomjean 7y ago

The US does the same... sometimes. Some states(US) cap landfills with large sheets of plastic (the new ones have plastic on the bottom, making a "giant bag") and punch holes for venting methane and other exhaust gasses. They vent because the gas is flammable and having it build up under a sheet of plastic is risky. Landfills catch on fire frequently. [2] Some sites collect the gas and burn it, but it isn't common. You can see the venting tubes on this photo of liner repair after lightning strike...[1] [1]https://comanco.com/blog/comanco-makes-liner-repairs-on-closed-landfill-after-lightning-strike/ https://comanco.com/blog/comanco-makes-liner-repairs-on-clos... [2]http://www.mowastecoalition.org/resources/Documents/2018%20conference/2018%20%20MWCC%20-%20Landfill%20Fire%20Presentation.pdf http://www.mowastecoalition.org/resources/Documents/2018%20c...

labawi 7y ago
I think (hope) GP means landfills with biological waste only, generating methane in lieu of composting. I wouldn't want to grow food on our mixed use landfills.
- greglindahl 7y ago
  California has quite a few composting landfills. So GP is calling for the same technology that's already used in parts of California, perhaps covering more people than the entire population of Norway (5.4 million people) Map of composting facilities in California: https://www.biocycle.net/2018/03/12/california-composting/ https://www.biocycle.net/2018/03/12/california-composting/
  - labawi 7y ago
    Composting is aerated, generates soil and CO₂, not methane. Anaerobic digestion generates methane and soil, though AFAIK of a lesser quality. Per article, California does have AD facilities, though doesn't mention composting/AD ratio. We can speculate what punnerud meant, but I would point out that Norway has some kind of a landfill ban. IIUC, they have (almost) no classical mixed-use landfills, and nearly all landfilled organic waste is actually in an anaerobic digestion or composting "facility".

dubyah 7y ago

Landfill gas to power used to be more prevalent, but an AQMD rule change to reduce NOx made them switch to flaring instead because it couldn't compete against subsidized renewables. http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-methane-gas-conundrum-20161021-snap-story.html http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-methane-gas-co...

stolsvik 7y ago

I believe it is mandatory to capture it, and either find a use for it (electricity or heat, or both), or you must flare it.

loeg 7y ago

> In Norway we place plastic over the (food) landfill, gather the methane That is also common for US landfills.