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America makes more sense when you consider that Civil Society (as in the third sector) is mostly dead, and what is left is extremely fragmented. There is no coh

America makes more sense when you consider that Civil Society (as in the third sector) is mostly dead, and what is left is extremely fragmented. There is no cohesion, very little shared culture, and a lot of outright animosity between groups. They aren't countrymen, they just happen to live in the same legal boundaries. When people in this mindset see homeless they don't think "This is a member of my society that is suffering", they see an Other. Put another way, plenty of old men want to plant trees, they just only want their own group using the shade.

asdfman123 7y ago
Racism. It's mostly driven by racism but we're not allowed to call it that.
- AlexB138 7y ago
  While probably part of it, I don't personally believe that to be a primary cause. America is probably at or near the least racist it has been in its history. I think the entities driving narratives that make people believe racism is rampant, and cause people to make flippant accusations of racism, have more to do with it.
- jjb123 7y ago
  How so? Do you mean that people "would" help if they weren't racist? San Francisco, which has one of the largest homeless populations per capita, has a homeless population that is 35% caucasian (the largest represented racial group). (Edited to add: Caucasians make up 40.2% of the city population) https://sf.curbed.com/2017/6/16/15818104/homeless-sf-count-2017 https://sf.curbed.com/2017/6/16/15818104/homeless-sf-count-2... https://datausa.io/profile/geo/san-francisco-ca https://datausa.io/profile/geo/san-francisco-ca
  - rhacker 7y ago
    Across the West (where I travel the most) see that most homeless is white. I would say too, that, even in places with much higher Mexican or migrant populations, such as Tucson, AZ - the homeless population is also mostly white. At least visibly. Homelessness doesn't seem to be related to racism, it seems to be a very white specific thing (at least in these western states - CA, WA, OR, MT, CO, UT, NV, AZ, NM, WY).
    - lazyasciiart 7y ago
      “Visible” homelessness is often quite a different demographic to overall homelessness - for instance women and children tend not to be visible. There may be a similar effect with race.
      - navigatesol 7y ago
        Anything to prevent us from feeling sorry for white men, am I right?
      - rhacker 7y ago
        The actual counts generally back this up. https://www.library.pima.gov/content/homelessness-statistics/ https://www.library.pima.gov/content/homelessness-statistics... It's kinda hard to find, but Tucson's homelessness was 72% caucasian, 19% native american. I don't think there is any interagency that is putting these numbers in one place yet... that's probably desperately needed for this country to start tackling the problem. There may actually be a reason why white people are specifically affected- and it is probably related to family processes.
        lazyasciiart 7y ago
        No, they don't. To start: of course this is tracked federally, it has been for years. Here's a recent report https://files.hudexchange.info/resources/documents/2018-AHAR-Part-1.pdf https://files.hudexchange.info/resources/documents/2018-AHAR... You will note that it calls out that African Americans are extremely disproportionately represented in homeless groups (13% of population, 40% of homeless people), and in the overall demographic table we can see that white people make up about 50% of homeless people vs ~70% of the population. It also mentions that among the population of unsheltered people, which are the group I'd call more visible, white people are slightly less under-represented, at 60%. The only place '72%' comes up in the report you linked is the BoS counties, not Tucson, so I'll assume you meant that. That seems well out of proportion to the total population so I'd ask some questions about how well the counts cover tribal lands, etc (since it's actually a count used for federal assistance, which is handled differently on tribal lands). There is increasing attention given to the lack of attention to homelessness on tribal lands, and they definitely used to not be counted - this report gives some info on how they can be undercounted even if included http://www.ruralhome.org/storage/documents/rpts_pubs/na_homeless_count_toolkit.pdf http://www.ruralhome.org/storage/documents/rpts_pubs/na_home...
- infinitezest 7y ago
  In my experience the case is exactly the opposite. The term "racism" is so overloaded at this point that you can call someone a racist if they've mentioned anything even tangentially related to race. It's an insult more than a descriptor.
- rayiner 7y ago
  Not allowed to call it that since when? It seems to me that we’re allowed to call everything racism these days. E.g. Warren talking about “environmental racism, economic racism, criminal-justice racism, health-care racism.” I don’t disagree with your point in a certain sense, but your framing is fluffy and unsatisfying. America is one of the least racist countries in the world. For example, 82% of French support banning Islamic head coverings, versus just 28% of Americans: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2010/07/14/french-support-for-ban-on-full-islamic-veil https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2010/07/14/french-supp.... I’m a Bangladeshi married to an Oregonian. (Not like Portland, like rural Oregon coast.) I’ve lived in red states, visited rural parts of the country, and currently live in a precinct that voted for Trump. The degree to which Americans are willing to accept you into their communities, given minimal attempts to conform, never ceases to amaze me. (And when I hear about how “profoundly racist” America is, I can’t help but think sheepishly: “man, what would they say about Bangladesh?”) So how much explanatory power does leveling charges of racism really have? Clearly racism exists and is a bad thing and produces many problems. But racism is also a structural problem endemic to humans, not anything unique to Americans. How much can you really rely on racism alone to explain the level of division within American society?
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago
    A lot of divisions in America are driven by generations of policy based on racism - from redlining, white flight and zoning policies that changed the structure of cities and are now used as weapons against newcomers and change, to the very existence of many cities and governments that were created in order to be a separate white space from the larger cities nearby, and the use of these boundaries to avoid funding the basics of society for everyone (school districts, libraries, roads, etc). The vast majority of Americans are not racist in the sense that they are personally antagonistic to an individual of another race. But many of them are racist in the sense that they think black people on average are poorer because they have shitty culture, not because white people historically prevented them from buying land, prevented them from being educated, prevented them from using opportunities like the GI bill, etc.
    - sol_remmy2 7y ago
codyb 7y ago
I think a lot of this mindset is also driven by the fact that the loudest members of society aren’t generally reflective of society as a whole. The Trump supporters at rallies, and the cancel/call out culture on Twitter are two examples that come to mind which bias an individual towards large groups of people who mostly aren’t such caricatures. It’s like the whole LatinX thing, where no Latinos really identify as LatinX but it’s this narrative pushed forward by an extremely vocal super minority. Or that whole uproar about white women wearing Japanese clothing that happened. At the end of the day, I think most Americans are more connected than we think culturally and it’s a bit of a shame but we mostly don’t hear the opinions of the people who’re working, taking care of children, and otherwise enjoying life by partaking in hobbies, social events, and cultural activities. What we do hear are the people so invested in X or Y as to be extremely strongly opinionated enough about and invested in it that they may drive culture one way or the other without the contributions of most individuals. Of course there is xenophobia, and strong prejudices and biases out there, but I’m hardpressed to describe Americans as being that way as a whole and in general I think we mostly move forward on social issues even if we take a couple steps back. We’re seeing one of the most unequal periods of American history come to a head right now, exacerbated by tax cuts for the wealthiest, globalization, unfettered money in politics, and a whole slew of other factors. But I have a feeling we’re going to come out of it okay, and I’m especially hopeful for Generation Z which seems to be all about achieving universal healthcare, affordable education, the freedom to be yourself in nondiscriminatory ways, and tackling climate change.
santojleo 7y ago
This is your opinion, and a bit insulting considering you have taken a broad brush stroke across a country of 300+ million people, including myself. Perhaps you should get off the twitter bubble and go get involved in your community. A few issues with your argument: 1) "plenty of old men" is almost certainty referring to the common portrayal of "old white men" and more broadly speaking all White Americans. Let's just pick this one apart. I cannot speak for all the various religions in the US and their relative charity work, but I know that every church I have ever been apart of has done a tremendous amount of charity work not just in their local community but across the globe, mainly in third world countries - of not "white people". I will make the responsible assumption that other religions do the same. Considering more than 40% of US citizens attend some religious congregation weekly, that means more than 150 million Americans are contributing physically, and likely economically, to global organizations that have shared culture and do "goodwill" in the US and abroad... most often for the "suffering", and a large % of this group of Americans are white, many of which are old - as it's well known that religious observation is significantly greater among pre-Millennial generations. 2) Speaking to the remaining 60% of the United States, more than 62 million Americans volunteer, it's growing every year, and more than half of American's contribute to charity. Again, even assuming 50% overlap with the active-observant religion 40% of the population, we can assume almost every American contributes to an organization either through labor or charity to help those who suffer, and the delta of those who are likely not contributing physically or economically are probably those receiving said charity, and not a huge swath of millions of racist anti-American "countrymen". 3) To your point about a "disconnected society of mostly old white men", I have lived in South Florida for most of my life, where there is a HUGE influx of immigrants and refugees such as Cubans, Haitians, Central Americans, and most recently South Americans, i.e. Venezuelans - where these communities often represent double digit % of the population, and majority of the population in certain large geographic areas. You cannot "drive around" without seeing a car displaying a flag of their country of origin. From the tone of your comment it sounds like YOU have a problem with that behavior? You are essentially calling them un-American. Frankly speaking as someone who has gone to public school with the children of these people, most of which the children were born outside the US, many of which are "Dreamers" - I know many might "long for their homeland". I know many have immense pride of their heritage. But these people that I know most often have joined the military, police, or other government service - because that is more often then not a stable, often guaranteed, step up in society both economically and I believe from a respect perspective which by your argument they apparently still have to earn. I assume you do respect those vital national and local services, regardless of the "Americanism" of those carrying out the services. 4) American Culture is defined by "shared culture", it is unique compared to every other country in the world BECAUSE OF THAT, not in spite of that. It is constantly changing and evolving. And the fringe that you speak to is simply ignorant of that fluidity that makes this country so unique and grand. I won't make the assumption of generalizing you and putting you into that fringe, but you certainly are amplifying that group by accusing all others of being apart of it without any evidence or scientific fact.

asdfman123 7y ago

Racism. It's mostly driven by racism but we're not allowed to call it that.

AlexB138 7y ago
While probably part of it, I don't personally believe that to be a primary cause. America is probably at or near the least racist it has been in its history. I think the entities driving narratives that make people believe racism is rampant, and cause people to make flippant accusations of racism, have more to do with it.
jjb123 7y ago
How so? Do you mean that people "would" help if they weren't racist? San Francisco, which has one of the largest homeless populations per capita, has a homeless population that is 35% caucasian (the largest represented racial group). (Edited to add: Caucasians make up 40.2% of the city population) https://sf.curbed.com/2017/6/16/15818104/homeless-sf-count-2017 https://sf.curbed.com/2017/6/16/15818104/homeless-sf-count-2... https://datausa.io/profile/geo/san-francisco-ca https://datausa.io/profile/geo/san-francisco-ca
- rhacker 7y ago
  Across the West (where I travel the most) see that most homeless is white. I would say too, that, even in places with much higher Mexican or migrant populations, such as Tucson, AZ - the homeless population is also mostly white. At least visibly. Homelessness doesn't seem to be related to racism, it seems to be a very white specific thing (at least in these western states - CA, WA, OR, MT, CO, UT, NV, AZ, NM, WY).
  - lazyasciiart 7y ago
    “Visible” homelessness is often quite a different demographic to overall homelessness - for instance women and children tend not to be visible. There may be a similar effect with race.
    - navigatesol 7y ago
      Anything to prevent us from feeling sorry for white men, am I right?
    - rhacker 7y ago
      The actual counts generally back this up. https://www.library.pima.gov/content/homelessness-statistics/ https://www.library.pima.gov/content/homelessness-statistics... It's kinda hard to find, but Tucson's homelessness was 72% caucasian, 19% native american. I don't think there is any interagency that is putting these numbers in one place yet... that's probably desperately needed for this country to start tackling the problem. There may actually be a reason why white people are specifically affected- and it is probably related to family processes.
      - lazyasciiart 7y ago
        No, they don't. To start: of course this is tracked federally, it has been for years. Here's a recent report https://files.hudexchange.info/resources/documents/2018-AHAR-Part-1.pdf https://files.hudexchange.info/resources/documents/2018-AHAR... You will note that it calls out that African Americans are extremely disproportionately represented in homeless groups (13% of population, 40% of homeless people), and in the overall demographic table we can see that white people make up about 50% of homeless people vs ~70% of the population. It also mentions that among the population of unsheltered people, which are the group I'd call more visible, white people are slightly less under-represented, at 60%. The only place '72%' comes up in the report you linked is the BoS counties, not Tucson, so I'll assume you meant that. That seems well out of proportion to the total population so I'd ask some questions about how well the counts cover tribal lands, etc (since it's actually a count used for federal assistance, which is handled differently on tribal lands). There is increasing attention given to the lack of attention to homelessness on tribal lands, and they definitely used to not be counted - this report gives some info on how they can be undercounted even if included http://www.ruralhome.org/storage/documents/rpts_pubs/na_homeless_count_toolkit.pdf http://www.ruralhome.org/storage/documents/rpts_pubs/na_home...
infinitezest 7y ago
In my experience the case is exactly the opposite. The term "racism" is so overloaded at this point that you can call someone a racist if they've mentioned anything even tangentially related to race. It's an insult more than a descriptor.
rayiner 7y ago
Not allowed to call it that since when? It seems to me that we’re allowed to call everything racism these days. E.g. Warren talking about “environmental racism, economic racism, criminal-justice racism, health-care racism.” I don’t disagree with your point in a certain sense, but your framing is fluffy and unsatisfying. America is one of the least racist countries in the world. For example, 82% of French support banning Islamic head coverings, versus just 28% of Americans: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2010/07/14/french-support-for-ban-on-full-islamic-veil https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2010/07/14/french-supp.... I’m a Bangladeshi married to an Oregonian. (Not like Portland, like rural Oregon coast.) I’ve lived in red states, visited rural parts of the country, and currently live in a precinct that voted for Trump. The degree to which Americans are willing to accept you into their communities, given minimal attempts to conform, never ceases to amaze me. (And when I hear about how “profoundly racist” America is, I can’t help but think sheepishly: “man, what would they say about Bangladesh?”) So how much explanatory power does leveling charges of racism really have? Clearly racism exists and is a bad thing and produces many problems. But racism is also a structural problem endemic to humans, not anything unique to Americans. How much can you really rely on racism alone to explain the level of division within American society?
- lazyasciiart 7y ago
  A lot of divisions in America are driven by generations of policy based on racism - from redlining, white flight and zoning policies that changed the structure of cities and are now used as weapons against newcomers and change, to the very existence of many cities and governments that were created in order to be a separate white space from the larger cities nearby, and the use of these boundaries to avoid funding the basics of society for everyone (school districts, libraries, roads, etc). The vast majority of Americans are not racist in the sense that they are personally antagonistic to an individual of another race. But many of them are racist in the sense that they think black people on average are poorer because they have shitty culture, not because white people historically prevented them from buying land, prevented them from being educated, prevented them from using opportunities like the GI bill, etc.
  - sol_remmy2 7y ago

codyb 7y ago

I think a lot of this mindset is also driven by the fact that the loudest members of society aren’t generally reflective of society as a whole. The Trump supporters at rallies, and the cancel/call out culture on Twitter are two examples that come to mind which bias an individual towards large groups of people who mostly aren’t such caricatures. It’s like the whole LatinX thing, where no Latinos really identify as LatinX but it’s this narrative pushed forward by an extremely vocal super minority. Or that whole uproar about white women wearing Japanese clothing that happened. At the end of the day, I think most Americans are more connected than we think culturally and it’s a bit of a shame but we mostly don’t hear the opinions of the people who’re working, taking care of children, and otherwise enjoying life by partaking in hobbies, social events, and cultural activities. What we do hear are the people so invested in X or Y as to be extremely strongly opinionated enough about and invested in it that they may drive culture one way or the other without the contributions of most individuals. Of course there is xenophobia, and strong prejudices and biases out there, but I’m hardpressed to describe Americans as being that way as a whole and in general I think we mostly move forward on social issues even if we take a couple steps back. We’re seeing one of the most unequal periods of American history come to a head right now, exacerbated by tax cuts for the wealthiest, globalization, unfettered money in politics, and a whole slew of other factors. But I have a feeling we’re going to come out of it okay, and I’m especially hopeful for Generation Z which seems to be all about achieving universal healthcare, affordable education, the freedom to be yourself in nondiscriminatory ways, and tackling climate change.

santojleo 7y ago

This is your opinion, and a bit insulting considering you have taken a broad brush stroke across a country of 300+ million people, including myself. Perhaps you should get off the twitter bubble and go get involved in your community. A few issues with your argument: 1) "plenty of old men" is almost certainty referring to the common portrayal of "old white men" and more broadly speaking all White Americans. Let's just pick this one apart. I cannot speak for all the various religions in the US and their relative charity work, but I know that every church I have ever been apart of has done a tremendous amount of charity work not just in their local community but across the globe, mainly in third world countries - of not "white people". I will make the responsible assumption that other religions do the same. Considering more than 40% of US citizens attend some religious congregation weekly, that means more than 150 million Americans are contributing physically, and likely economically, to global organizations that have shared culture and do "goodwill" in the US and abroad... most often for the "suffering", and a large % of this group of Americans are white, many of which are old - as it's well known that religious observation is significantly greater among pre-Millennial generations. 2) Speaking to the remaining 60% of the United States, more than 62 million Americans volunteer, it's growing every year, and more than half of American's contribute to charity. Again, even assuming 50% overlap with the active-observant religion 40% of the population, we can assume almost every American contributes to an organization either through labor or charity to help those who suffer, and the delta of those who are likely not contributing physically or economically are probably those receiving said charity, and not a huge swath of millions of racist anti-American "countrymen". 3) To your point about a "disconnected society of mostly old white men", I have lived in South Florida for most of my life, where there is a HUGE influx of immigrants and refugees such as Cubans, Haitians, Central Americans, and most recently South Americans, i.e. Venezuelans - where these communities often represent double digit % of the population, and majority of the population in certain large geographic areas. You cannot "drive around" without seeing a car displaying a flag of their country of origin. From the tone of your comment it sounds like YOU have a problem with that behavior? You are essentially calling them un-American. Frankly speaking as someone who has gone to public school with the children of these people, most of which the children were born outside the US, many of which are "Dreamers" - I know many might "long for their homeland". I know many have immense pride of their heritage. But these people that I know most often have joined the military, police, or other government service - because that is more often then not a stable, often guaranteed, step up in society both economically and I believe from a respect perspective which by your argument they apparently still have to earn. I assume you do respect those vital national and local services, regardless of the "Americanism" of those carrying out the services. 4) American Culture is defined by "shared culture", it is unique compared to every other country in the world BECAUSE OF THAT, not in spite of that. It is constantly changing and evolving. And the fringe that you speak to is simply ignorant of that fluidity that makes this country so unique and grand. I won't make the assumption of generalizing you and putting you into that fringe, but you certainly are amplifying that group by accusing all others of being apart of it without any evidence or scientific fact.