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> Stable ABI for drivers will result in the Windows situation: hardware vendors will just release one driver for one Windows version and one processor architect

> Stable ABI for drivers will result in the Windows situation: hardware vendors will just release one driver for one Windows version and one processor architecture. Uh, I dare say Windows hardware + driver compatibility is pretty damn good, so this doesn't really resonate with me... at all. Has not being able to install Windows XP on a modern machine left you bitter...? Or have I been living in a bubble?

matheusmoreira 7y ago
> Has not being able to install Windows XP on a modern machine left you bitter...? Not at all. I have been burned by drivers that only worked in 32 bit Windows XP though. They simply couldn't be used in newer versions of Windows. The manufacturer couldn't care less, they think I should just trash the unsupported hardware and buy the newest product instead. Linux doesn't have this problem. Once a driver makes it into the kernel, it can be maintained, updated, fixed, refactored, improved, backported to older kernels, recompiled for new architectures. It's just so much better.
arghwhat 7y ago
Windows hardware + driver compatibility is a nightmare fueled by proprietary duct-taped one-off drivers supporting only one or two devices each. One of the reasons for this is that you can get away with anything on Windows, because everything is proprietary. There are headsets targeting Windows users that require kernel-mode drivers to work. Which, of course, is super fragile and will break at some point, rendering your expensive headset useless.
- matheusmoreira 7y ago
  > There are headsets targeting Windows users that require kernel-mode drivers to work. That's horrifying. What headsets are these? Gaming headsets? I wouldn't trust that industry with kernel mode access to my compurer.
  - arghwhat 7y ago
    It is indeed horrifying, and the particular products I'm thinking of are indeed from a series of gaming headsets. There are other categories of headsets, speakerphones and the likes that are equally awful, though, which is why I see the problem as universal to products targeting Windows: There is no scrutiny to stop this idiocy, and the average consumer has no idea why this is bad, and no idea that those blue screens were because of a headset. Having a connection to said company, I'd rather not name them though.
    - matheusmoreira 7y ago
      > There is no scrutiny to stop this idiocy, and the average consumer has no idea why this is bad, and no idea that those blue screens were because of a headset. Yeah. Microsoft doesn't exercise any control and the result is hardware manufacturers force bogus software down the throats of Windows users. The Linux community can count on Linus Torvalds and the kernel hackers to provide that scrutiny and people trust Linux a lot more as a result. I always cite capcom.sys as an example of why random companies shouldn't be allowed to write drivers: https://twitter.com/TheWack0lian/status/779397840762245124/ https://twitter.com/TheWack0lian/status/779397840762245124/
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  Wait, kernel-mode? Really? I was under the impression that sound hardware was all user-mode since Vista.
  - arghwhat 7y ago
    It is, right until you want to emulate an audio device that vastly differs from what you have (say, presenting a headset as a surround sound device and do in-driver signal processing).
Crinus 7y ago
> Has not being able to install Windows XP on a modern machine left you bitter...? Yes. The topic at hand is how newer software can screw things after all, which causes people to want to stick to older versions. The same applies with Windows 7 BTW - or whatever your favorite Windows version is. But it also goes in the other way: being bitter that i am not able to install drivers on Windows 10 for older hardware that should otherwise work.

matheusmoreira 7y ago

> Has not being able to install Windows XP on a modern machine left you bitter...? Not at all. I have been burned by drivers that only worked in 32 bit Windows XP though. They simply couldn't be used in newer versions of Windows. The manufacturer couldn't care less, they think I should just trash the unsupported hardware and buy the newest product instead. Linux doesn't have this problem. Once a driver makes it into the kernel, it can be maintained, updated, fixed, refactored, improved, backported to older kernels, recompiled for new architectures. It's just so much better.

arghwhat 7y ago

Windows hardware + driver compatibility is a nightmare fueled by proprietary duct-taped one-off drivers supporting only one or two devices each. One of the reasons for this is that you can get away with anything on Windows, because everything is proprietary. There are headsets targeting Windows users that require kernel-mode drivers to work. Which, of course, is super fragile and will break at some point, rendering your expensive headset useless.

matheusmoreira 7y ago
> There are headsets targeting Windows users that require kernel-mode drivers to work. That's horrifying. What headsets are these? Gaming headsets? I wouldn't trust that industry with kernel mode access to my compurer.
- arghwhat 7y ago
  It is indeed horrifying, and the particular products I'm thinking of are indeed from a series of gaming headsets. There are other categories of headsets, speakerphones and the likes that are equally awful, though, which is why I see the problem as universal to products targeting Windows: There is no scrutiny to stop this idiocy, and the average consumer has no idea why this is bad, and no idea that those blue screens were because of a headset. Having a connection to said company, I'd rather not name them though.
  - matheusmoreira 7y ago
    > There is no scrutiny to stop this idiocy, and the average consumer has no idea why this is bad, and no idea that those blue screens were because of a headset. Yeah. Microsoft doesn't exercise any control and the result is hardware manufacturers force bogus software down the throats of Windows users. The Linux community can count on Linus Torvalds and the kernel hackers to provide that scrutiny and people trust Linux a lot more as a result. I always cite capcom.sys as an example of why random companies shouldn't be allowed to write drivers: https://twitter.com/TheWack0lian/status/779397840762245124/ https://twitter.com/TheWack0lian/status/779397840762245124/
AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
Wait, kernel-mode? Really? I was under the impression that sound hardware was all user-mode since Vista.
- arghwhat 7y ago
  It is, right until you want to emulate an audio device that vastly differs from what you have (say, presenting a headset as a surround sound device and do in-driver signal processing).

Crinus 7y ago

> Has not being able to install Windows XP on a modern machine left you bitter...? Yes. The topic at hand is how newer software can screw things after all, which causes people to want to stick to older versions. The same applies with Windows 7 BTW - or whatever your favorite Windows version is. But it also goes in the other way: being bitter that i am not able to install drivers on Windows 10 for older hardware that should otherwise work.