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Climate Change Response (Zero Carbon) Amendment Bill

118 points by mikedilger 7y ago

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ConceitedCode 7y ago
Full digest of the bill - https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/bills-and-laws/bills-digests/document/52PLLaw25931/climate-change-response-zero-carbon-amendment-bill-2019 https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/bills-and-laws/bills-digests... Lots to read over, but this stuck out to me so far. "gross emissions of biogenic methane in a calendar year are 10% less than 2017 emissions by the calendar year beginning on 1 January 2030; and are at least 24% to 47% less than 2017 emissions by the calendar year beginning on 1 January 2050 and for each subsequent calendar year" "no remedy or relief is available for failure to meet the 2050 target or an emissions budget, and the 2050 target and emissions budgets are not enforceable in a court of law, except that if the 2050 target or an emissions budget is not met, a court may make a declaration to that effect, together with an award of costs"
- marcusverus 7y ago
  Unless they plan to ban the consumption of meat, the biogenic methane cap seems like it would result in more emissions. If Kiwis don't grow their own beef, they will just have it shipped from abroad. Same consumption pattern, no global change in gross biogenic methane, but now there is the added emissions of shipping the beef across an ocean. Also, I can scarcely think of a more Orwellian idea than that Kiwis may soon be required to hold a (scarce) methane permit in order to raise livestock on their own land. Your sow had a litter, ey? Hope your permits are in order!
  - phs318u 7y ago
    There are other approaches to livestock methane reduction being actively investigated (and I’d suggest more promising than perennial unicorns such as carbon sequestration). One example: https://blog.csiro.au/feeding-seaweed-to-cows-our-livestock-methane-research-lights-up/ https://blog.csiro.au/feeding-seaweed-to-cows-our-livestock-...
    - ip26 7y ago
      Even just feeding cows grass instead of corn improves the methane emissions.
      - phs318u 7y ago
        I think corn feed is more of a US thing due to the over abundance of subsidised corn production (I’m amazed at how much of the human and animal food chain in the US is corn derived). In Australia and NZ, it’s mainly grass/hay.
  - vkou 7y ago
    There is a third option, which you have not considered - tariffs on non-conforming importers. > Also, I can scarcely think of a more Orwellian idea than that Kiwis may soon be required to hold a (scarce) methane permit in order to raise livestock on their own land. Your sow had a litter, ey? Hope your permits are in order! Canada operates this exact way with dairy licenses, and last time I dropped by, it wasn't an Orwellian nightmare. It's got a bit of a cronyism problem, but I've yet to see a country that doesn't.
mikedilger 7y ago
Local news commentary: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12283372 https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&object...
kova12 7y ago
Okay boomers...
jngreenlee 7y ago
Unfortunately it looks like just another bureaucracy with opportunity to appoint friends and supporters, but no real teeth or legal authority: "-no remedy or relief is available for failure to meet the 2050 target or an emissions budget, and the 2050 target and emissions budgets are not enforceable in a court of law, except that if the 2050 target or an emissions budget is not met, a court may make a declaration to that effect, together with an award of costs -a person or body may, but is not require to, take the 2050 target or an emissions budget into account in the exercise or performance of a public function, power, or duty"
- wolco 7y ago
  The great thing about a 31 year old target with no teeth means everyone can feel good today and no one responsible will be around if it fails.
  - notmyfuture 7y ago
    +1. It's hard to imagine any level of success without at least specifying milestones over those 31 years.
- phs318u 7y ago
  It’s all about moving the dial on public sentiment which is a prerequisite for actual legislation with teeth. The last (Australian) Prime Minister to actually implement real legislation with real effects was promptly burned at the stake by the usual suspects in the media and energy lobby (thanks Rupert).
- Taniwha 7y ago
  NZ regularly tops out as one of the least corrupt nations in the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index I don't know what happens in your country, but we don't appoint our friends to public sinecures
  - jngreenlee 7y ago
RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
> Ardern went on to say she absolutely believed climate change was the "biggest challenge of our time" and the "nuclear moment" for this generation. I find it ironic the prime minister is using “nuclear” as a pejorative when it was the left’s irrational opposition to nuclear power that resulted in much of the world's electricity being produced by fossil fuels. If we had embraced nuclear power 2 decades ago, we would have been in much better shape with respect to CO2 than we are in now.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Guest42 7y ago
  Do you have sources regarding the "left's irrational opposition to nuclear power"?
  - AmericanChopper 7y ago
    The left in New Zealand literally banned all forms of nuclear energy, going as far as prohibiting essentially all US Navy vessels from entering its waters just in case they had fissile material on board.
    - zknz 7y ago
      This is a mainstream political position in NZ, not one of the "left".
      - AmericanChopper 7y ago
        It’s actually a very controversial position, implemented by a left wing government.
        CamouflagedKiwi 7y ago
        It's not a controversial stance within NZ these days, nor seen as particularly partisan there. Other countries (especially the US given what it meant for ANZUS) might find it more so.
rb808 7y ago
> • Reduce emissions of all greenhouse gases except biogenic methane, to net zero by 2050 Lol more self important politicians making symbolic statements that will never be implemented. It didn't say how they do this. Go Nuclear? I guess the current politicians wont be there in 2050 so it doesn't really matter. Good thing they import all their manufactured goods from China, so at least they dont count.
notmyfuture 7y ago
Several regional councils in New Zealand have also declared a "Climate Emergency" over the last year (e.g. https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/113747732/councils-declare-climate-emergencies-but-will-it-result-in-any-real-change https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/113747732/c...). I appreciate the sentiment, but fear that this amounts to little more than posturing when what we need is action.
- phs318u 7y ago
  As I’ve said elsewhere, public sentiment has to be so strongly in side that it can withstand a media onslaught from the energy lobby and friends. Without the public strongly on side, any real actions will be short lived. Australian PM Gillard was the proof of that pudding.
KorematsuFred 7y ago
This is great. Now larger countries like USA and India and China should wait for a decade or so to see how this translated to the smaller countries over a decade.
dzhiurgis 7y ago
I'd like to know how come cheapest $40k USD ($62.3k NZD) Tesla in US, cost $75.9k or about 18% more in NZ? And come the only "incentive" is "you don't pay road tax thru fuel" (while you still pay quite a bit thru yearly registration)? How come there are 0 electric buses or heavy equipment in Auckland or whole NZ? How come solar panels for your boat or lithium batteries for your bike (or electric bikes themselves) cost something like 4x than outside world? And also where are the bike paths? Or even pedestrian paths in some places? If you live in North Shore and wanna get into city using your electric motorbike (that costs 2-4x per year to keep registered when compared to a car)? Tough look. Ah yes scooters, nearly destroyed by likes of NZHerald with fear mongering articles... Lastly this one is more to criticise business and I actually find them vile and atrocious - but where are all the Impossible Burgers?
- notmyfuture 7y ago
  Yes, also keep in mind that incentive won't last long (ref: https://www.transport.govt.nz/multi-modal/climatechange/electric-vehicles/ https://www.transport.govt.nz/multi-modal/climatechange/elec...). Once EV's make up > 2% of NZ's vehicle fleet they plan to start charging. Given the suitability of NZ for EV's it would be nice if there was more government support for their uptake.
  - cgrealy 7y ago
    While I agree that we should be incentivising EVs in NZ, I will point out that NZ is also probably one of the least suitable countries for EVs. Most of NZ is very sparsely populated; your transport choices are basically fly or drive yourself. There isn't much of a rail network and buses take forever. There are basically no motorways. The South Island especially has a lot of mountains, and many roads that cover over high passes. My wife and I are looking at an EV for our second car, but my primary vehicle will be an ICE for the foreseeable future. It's just hard to go camping, skiing, or even travel between the larger towns in an EV.
    - dzhiurgis 7y ago
      Utter nonsense. The longest stretch without a gas station in NZ is something like 1-2 hours. 30 minutes between a house or a farm where you'd be able to get help in an emergency. Plus 90% of people never leave cities anyway. Finally EVs will soon have longer range than ICE's. I am not sure what roads do you travel, but I find it's actually quite difficult to hide on NZ roads - if you wanna do something cheeky or sleep - you'll be driving long way to find something that's not private property or fenced farm. Nature is absolutely gorgeous but it's already divided and feels almost artificial (even my father joking they've put speakers in bush to make fake bird sounds).
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
chris1993 7y ago
A lot of the commentary here is attacking the specifics of the bill as unrealistic posturing. This ignores what I think is the main point - that the NZ government has reached consensus acknowledging that climate change is an existential risk and they need to respond at a goverment level. The details of how they act will almost certainly be changed but it's a start. It also assists in putting pressure on Australia. This is important because Australia has a climate-change denial government and powerful coal mining lobbies, and with only 25M people generates more CO2 pollution than the UK, France, or South Korea [1][2]. [1] https://www.tai.org.au/sites/default/files/P667%20High%20Carbon%20from%20a%20Land%20Down%20Under%20%5BWEB%5D_0.pdf https://www.tai.org.au/sites/default/files/P667%20High%20Car... [2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2019-08-19/australia-co2-exports-third-highest-worldwide/11420654 https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2019-08-19/australia-co2...
benmmurphy 7y ago
This bill seems completely aspirational and doesn’t actually change anything. It seems to codify some kind of goal but there is no way to make this goal actually happen. Am I missing something? In Westminster Democracy if you want to reduce emissions by X you need to actually introduce laws that will change people’s behaviour. This bill doesn’t do that.
DevKoala 7y ago
Does the USA have a similar website or API that allows you to see the progress of legislature as it is passing?
- oftenwrong 7y ago
  https://congress.gov/ https://congress.gov/

118 points by mikedilger 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Full digest of the bill - https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/bills-and-laws/bills-digests/document/52PLLaw25931/climate-change-response-zero-carbon-amendment-bill-2019 https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/bills-and-laws/bills-digests... Lots to read over, but this stuck out to me so far. "gross emissions of biogenic methane in a calendar year are 10% less than 2017 emissions by the calendar year beginning on 1 January 2030; and are at least 24% to 47% less than 2017 emissions by the calendar year beginning on 1 January 2050 and for each subsequent calendar year" "no remedy or relief is available for failure to meet the 2050 target or an emissions budget, and the 2050 target and emissions budgets are not enforceable in a court of law, except that if the 2050 target or an emissions budget is not met, a court may make a declaration to that effect, together with an award of costs"

marcusverus 7y ago
Unless they plan to ban the consumption of meat, the biogenic methane cap seems like it would result in more emissions. If Kiwis don't grow their own beef, they will just have it shipped from abroad. Same consumption pattern, no global change in gross biogenic methane, but now there is the added emissions of shipping the beef across an ocean. Also, I can scarcely think of a more Orwellian idea than that Kiwis may soon be required to hold a (scarce) methane permit in order to raise livestock on their own land. Your sow had a litter, ey? Hope your permits are in order!
- phs318u 7y ago
  There are other approaches to livestock methane reduction being actively investigated (and I’d suggest more promising than perennial unicorns such as carbon sequestration). One example: https://blog.csiro.au/feeding-seaweed-to-cows-our-livestock-methane-research-lights-up/ https://blog.csiro.au/feeding-seaweed-to-cows-our-livestock-...
  - ip26 7y ago
    Even just feeding cows grass instead of corn improves the methane emissions.
    - phs318u 7y ago
      I think corn feed is more of a US thing due to the over abundance of subsidised corn production (I’m amazed at how much of the human and animal food chain in the US is corn derived). In Australia and NZ, it’s mainly grass/hay.
- vkou 7y ago
  There is a third option, which you have not considered - tariffs on non-conforming importers. > Also, I can scarcely think of a more Orwellian idea than that Kiwis may soon be required to hold a (scarce) methane permit in order to raise livestock on their own land. Your sow had a litter, ey? Hope your permits are in order! Canada operates this exact way with dairy licenses, and last time I dropped by, it wasn't an Orwellian nightmare. It's got a bit of a cronyism problem, but I've yet to see a country that doesn't.

mikedilger 7y ago

Local news commentary: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12283372 https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&object...

kova12 7y ago

Okay boomers...

jngreenlee 7y ago

Unfortunately it looks like just another bureaucracy with opportunity to appoint friends and supporters, but no real teeth or legal authority: "-no remedy or relief is available for failure to meet the 2050 target or an emissions budget, and the 2050 target and emissions budgets are not enforceable in a court of law, except that if the 2050 target or an emissions budget is not met, a court may make a declaration to that effect, together with an award of costs -a person or body may, but is not require to, take the 2050 target or an emissions budget into account in the exercise or performance of a public function, power, or duty"

wolco 7y ago
The great thing about a 31 year old target with no teeth means everyone can feel good today and no one responsible will be around if it fails.
- notmyfuture 7y ago
  +1. It's hard to imagine any level of success without at least specifying milestones over those 31 years.
phs318u 7y ago
It’s all about moving the dial on public sentiment which is a prerequisite for actual legislation with teeth. The last (Australian) Prime Minister to actually implement real legislation with real effects was promptly burned at the stake by the usual suspects in the media and energy lobby (thanks Rupert).
Taniwha 7y ago
NZ regularly tops out as one of the least corrupt nations in the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index I don't know what happens in your country, but we don't appoint our friends to public sinecures
- jngreenlee 7y ago

RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago

> Ardern went on to say she absolutely believed climate change was the "biggest challenge of our time" and the "nuclear moment" for this generation. I find it ironic the prime minister is using “nuclear” as a pejorative when it was the left’s irrational opposition to nuclear power that resulted in much of the world's electricity being produced by fossil fuels. If we had embraced nuclear power 2 decades ago, we would have been in much better shape with respect to CO2 than we are in now.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Guest42 7y ago
Do you have sources regarding the "left's irrational opposition to nuclear power"?
- AmericanChopper 7y ago
  The left in New Zealand literally banned all forms of nuclear energy, going as far as prohibiting essentially all US Navy vessels from entering its waters just in case they had fissile material on board.
  - zknz 7y ago
    This is a mainstream political position in NZ, not one of the "left".
    - AmericanChopper 7y ago
      It’s actually a very controversial position, implemented by a left wing government.
      - CamouflagedKiwi 7y ago
        It's not a controversial stance within NZ these days, nor seen as particularly partisan there. Other countries (especially the US given what it meant for ANZUS) might find it more so.

rb808 7y ago

> • Reduce emissions of all greenhouse gases except biogenic methane, to net zero by 2050 Lol more self important politicians making symbolic statements that will never be implemented. It didn't say how they do this. Go Nuclear? I guess the current politicians wont be there in 2050 so it doesn't really matter. Good thing they import all their manufactured goods from China, so at least they dont count.

notmyfuture 7y ago

Several regional councils in New Zealand have also declared a "Climate Emergency" over the last year (e.g. https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/113747732/councils-declare-climate-emergencies-but-will-it-result-in-any-real-change https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/113747732/c...). I appreciate the sentiment, but fear that this amounts to little more than posturing when what we need is action.

phs318u 7y ago
As I’ve said elsewhere, public sentiment has to be so strongly in side that it can withstand a media onslaught from the energy lobby and friends. Without the public strongly on side, any real actions will be short lived. Australian PM Gillard was the proof of that pudding.

KorematsuFred 7y ago

This is great. Now larger countries like USA and India and China should wait for a decade or so to see how this translated to the smaller countries over a decade.

dzhiurgis 7y ago

I'd like to know how come cheapest $40k USD ($62.3k NZD) Tesla in US, cost $75.9k or about 18% more in NZ? And come the only "incentive" is "you don't pay road tax thru fuel" (while you still pay quite a bit thru yearly registration)? How come there are 0 electric buses or heavy equipment in Auckland or whole NZ? How come solar panels for your boat or lithium batteries for your bike (or electric bikes themselves) cost something like 4x than outside world? And also where are the bike paths? Or even pedestrian paths in some places? If you live in North Shore and wanna get into city using your electric motorbike (that costs 2-4x per year to keep registered when compared to a car)? Tough look. Ah yes scooters, nearly destroyed by likes of NZHerald with fear mongering articles... Lastly this one is more to criticise business and I actually find them vile and atrocious - but where are all the Impossible Burgers?

notmyfuture 7y ago
Yes, also keep in mind that incentive won't last long (ref: https://www.transport.govt.nz/multi-modal/climatechange/electric-vehicles/ https://www.transport.govt.nz/multi-modal/climatechange/elec...). Once EV's make up > 2% of NZ's vehicle fleet they plan to start charging. Given the suitability of NZ for EV's it would be nice if there was more government support for their uptake.
- cgrealy 7y ago
  While I agree that we should be incentivising EVs in NZ, I will point out that NZ is also probably one of the least suitable countries for EVs. Most of NZ is very sparsely populated; your transport choices are basically fly or drive yourself. There isn't much of a rail network and buses take forever. There are basically no motorways. The South Island especially has a lot of mountains, and many roads that cover over high passes. My wife and I are looking at an EV for our second car, but my primary vehicle will be an ICE for the foreseeable future. It's just hard to go camping, skiing, or even travel between the larger towns in an EV.
  - dzhiurgis 7y ago
    Utter nonsense. The longest stretch without a gas station in NZ is something like 1-2 hours. 30 minutes between a house or a farm where you'd be able to get help in an emergency. Plus 90% of people never leave cities anyway. Finally EVs will soon have longer range than ICE's. I am not sure what roads do you travel, but I find it's actually quite difficult to hide on NZ roads - if you wanna do something cheeky or sleep - you'll be driving long way to find something that's not private property or fenced farm. Nature is absolutely gorgeous but it's already divided and feels almost artificial (even my father joking they've put speakers in bush to make fake bird sounds).

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

chris1993 7y ago

A lot of the commentary here is attacking the specifics of the bill as unrealistic posturing. This ignores what I think is the main point - that the NZ government has reached consensus acknowledging that climate change is an existential risk and they need to respond at a goverment level. The details of how they act will almost certainly be changed but it's a start. It also assists in putting pressure on Australia. This is important because Australia has a climate-change denial government and powerful coal mining lobbies, and with only 25M people generates more CO2 pollution than the UK, France, or South Korea [1][2]. [1] https://www.tai.org.au/sites/default/files/P667%20High%20Carbon%20from%20a%20Land%20Down%20Under%20%5BWEB%5D_0.pdf https://www.tai.org.au/sites/default/files/P667%20High%20Car... [2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2019-08-19/australia-co2-exports-third-highest-worldwide/11420654 https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2019-08-19/australia-co2...

benmmurphy 7y ago

This bill seems completely aspirational and doesn’t actually change anything. It seems to codify some kind of goal but there is no way to make this goal actually happen. Am I missing something? In Westminster Democracy if you want to reduce emissions by X you need to actually introduce laws that will change people’s behaviour. This bill doesn’t do that.

DevKoala 7y ago

Does the USA have a similar website or API that allows you to see the progress of legislature as it is passing?

oftenwrong 7y ago
https://congress.gov/ https://congress.gov/