4 ms·

So let's change the rules to make them more easily attainable, instead of throwing out the idea of something that we desperately need in this country.

mullingitover 7y ago
Can you explain why the current system, under which voter fraud is astonishingly rare, is something we desperately need to change?
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
  One side says we don't need change. One side says we do. If you can't convince the other side that voter fraud is rare, then a step that prevents it while at the same time not discriminating between voters seems like it might be mutually agreeable.
  - mullingitover 7y ago
    The side that says we do has repeatedly been found to be making that case in bad faith, with the underlying goal of reducing voter turnout. Do you think it's that important to humor a group whose ultimate goal is mass disenfranchisement?
- masonic 7y ago
  It's not "rare". Only prosecution is rare, and conviction rates are high. It's so blatant in CA that almost 20% of counties have more registered voters than people even eligible to vote at all. https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-releases/judicial-watch-sues-california-los-angeles-dirty-voter-registration-rolls/ https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-releases/judicial-watch-...
  - gremlinsinc 7y ago
    Judicial Watch is most undoubtedly fake news: https://www.mediamatters.org/judicial-watch https://www.mediamatters.org/judicial-watch "Judicial Watch was founded in 1994 by the anti-Clinton conspiracy theorist and prolific litigator Larry Klayman and during the 2016 election, it regularly pushed misinformation about Hillary Clinton. The organization and its president, Tom Fitton, have become shills of President Trump since he took office, and Fitton regularly appears on Fox to defend Trump." Maybe try using a reputable source next time.
- neonIcon 7y ago
  Astonishingly rare doesn't seem to be the case[1] There are examples all over the place, ignoring them doesn't make them any less real.. [1] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=voter+fraud&t=ffab&ia=news&iar=news https://duckduckgo.com/?q=voter+fraud&t=ffab&ia=news&iar=new...
  - mullingitover 7y ago
    A random web search is cool, but how about a scholarly article on the topic? http://www.projectvote.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/Politics_of_Voter_Fraud_Final.pdf http://www.projectvote.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/Politi... > Most voter fraud allegations turn out to be something other than fraud. A review of news stories over a recent two year period found that reports of voter fraud were most often limited to local races and individual acts and fell into three categories: unsubstantiated or false claims by the loser of a close race, mischief and administrative or voter error. Tellingly, the first hit in your search is for an article where the loser of a close race is making unsubstantiated claims about voter fraud.
  - drewbug01 7y ago
    I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here - with your link (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=voter+fraud&t=ffab&ia=news&iar=news https://duckduckgo.com/?q=voter+fraud&t=ffab&ia=news&iar=new...) you seem to be implying that it will prove that there are examples "all over the place." However, here are the first ten articles when I load that page: 0: Loser of KY governor's race "raises concerns" that there is voter fraud but has not yet submitted concrete proof to anyone (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/kentucky-gov-matt-bevin-raises-voter-fraud-concerns-as-unofficial-tally-has-him-trailing-by-5000-votes.print https://www.foxnews.com/politics/kentucky-gov-matt-bevin-rai...) 1: A politician's wife is convicted of actual voting fraud; involving absentee ballots (which notably, voter ID laws don't really address, re: the topic a few replies up): https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/new-mexico/articles/2019-11-07/wife-of-espanola-city-councilman-is-convicted-of-voter-fraud https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/new-mexico/articles/... 2: Another article about item 1: https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/jury-finds-laura-seeds-guilty-on-six-counts-of-election/image_f10cf54b-2f74-52c7-9e78-4e16fa50db87.html https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/jury-finds... 3: A legal case relating to publicity of voter information, because the plaintiff wants to investigate for voter fraud: https://www.minnpost.com/state-government/2019/11/does-the-minnesota-secretary-of-state-get-to-decide-what-data-about-voters-is-public/ https://www.minnpost.com/state-government/2019/11/does-the-m... 4: An article about voter roll irregularities in Florida; the most interesting bits being some incorrect registrations (which do not necessarily indicate "fraud" as we'd commonly call it, though it may be illegal), and a few hundred cases of people who do seem to have cast multiple or irregular ballots (some from an unmentioned time period, and some from recent elections): https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-ne-palm-voter-errors-flagged-20191107-73lo4tz5yvgb5pahxsw3z5b4oe-story.html https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-ne-palm-vot... 5: A CalTech team analyses a different set of voter data and finds no fraud: https://www.cnet.com/news/new-algorithms-go-fraud-hunting-in-voter-database/ https://www.cnet.com/news/new-algorithms-go-fraud-hunting-in... 6: An article in which the convicted politician's wife in article (1) complains that it is a witch hunt: https://www.abqjournal.com/1388391/laura-seeds-alleges-voter-fraud-case-is-a-witch-hunt.html https://www.abqjournal.com/1388391/laura-seeds-alleges-voter... 7: A letter to the editor alleging that according to the Heritage Fund, there is no widespread voter fraud problem: https://www.thegazette.com/subject/opinion/letters-to-the-editor/voter-impersonation-a-real-threat-really-20191104 https://www.thegazette.com/subject/opinion/letters-to-the-ed... 8: An article about the convicted politician's wife in (1), this from before the case was decided: https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/jurors-weighing-espa-ola-voter-fraud-case/article_bd30d8d0-6f21-5561-9dbd-91580801ed0f.html https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/jurors-wei... 9: An article about students in North Carolina who will be unable to use their student IDs to vote: https://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2019/11/07/asheville-buncombe-tech-student-ids-wont-valid-nc-voting-2020-heres-why/4163380002/ https://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2019/11/07/as... Your link to a news search doesn't support your assertion that there are examples all over the place.
paulgb 7y ago
Sure, but those rules should be changed first. When people move to change the voting requirements without taking the steps to make sure everyone has reasonable access to ID, it sure looks like they're hoping for a specific partisan outcome and I have no problem with people assuming bad faith.
jadell 7y ago
Yes, but let's make sure IDs are easily attainable and that every eligible voter already has one, and then let's make them required to vote. Doing the last step without the prerequisites isn't going to increase democracy, it will only suppress already marginalized groups of voters.

mullingitover 7y ago

Can you explain why the current system, under which voter fraud is astonishingly rare, is something we desperately need to change?

6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
One side says we don't need change. One side says we do. If you can't convince the other side that voter fraud is rare, then a step that prevents it while at the same time not discriminating between voters seems like it might be mutually agreeable.
- mullingitover 7y ago
  The side that says we do has repeatedly been found to be making that case in bad faith, with the underlying goal of reducing voter turnout. Do you think it's that important to humor a group whose ultimate goal is mass disenfranchisement?
masonic 7y ago
It's not "rare". Only prosecution is rare, and conviction rates are high. It's so blatant in CA that almost 20% of counties have more registered voters than people even eligible to vote at all. https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-releases/judicial-watch-sues-california-los-angeles-dirty-voter-registration-rolls/ https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-releases/judicial-watch-...
- gremlinsinc 7y ago
  Judicial Watch is most undoubtedly fake news: https://www.mediamatters.org/judicial-watch https://www.mediamatters.org/judicial-watch "Judicial Watch was founded in 1994 by the anti-Clinton conspiracy theorist and prolific litigator Larry Klayman and during the 2016 election, it regularly pushed misinformation about Hillary Clinton. The organization and its president, Tom Fitton, have become shills of President Trump since he took office, and Fitton regularly appears on Fox to defend Trump." Maybe try using a reputable source next time.
neonIcon 7y ago
Astonishingly rare doesn't seem to be the case[1] There are examples all over the place, ignoring them doesn't make them any less real.. [1] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=voter+fraud&t=ffab&ia=news&iar=news https://duckduckgo.com/?q=voter+fraud&t=ffab&ia=news&iar=new...
- mullingitover 7y ago
  A random web search is cool, but how about a scholarly article on the topic? http://www.projectvote.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/Politics_of_Voter_Fraud_Final.pdf http://www.projectvote.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/Politi... > Most voter fraud allegations turn out to be something other than fraud. A review of news stories over a recent two year period found that reports of voter fraud were most often limited to local races and individual acts and fell into three categories: unsubstantiated or false claims by the loser of a close race, mischief and administrative or voter error. Tellingly, the first hit in your search is for an article where the loser of a close race is making unsubstantiated claims about voter fraud.
- drewbug01 7y ago
  I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here - with your link (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=voter+fraud&t=ffab&ia=news&iar=news https://duckduckgo.com/?q=voter+fraud&t=ffab&ia=news&iar=new...) you seem to be implying that it will prove that there are examples "all over the place." However, here are the first ten articles when I load that page: 0: Loser of KY governor's race "raises concerns" that there is voter fraud but has not yet submitted concrete proof to anyone (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/kentucky-gov-matt-bevin-raises-voter-fraud-concerns-as-unofficial-tally-has-him-trailing-by-5000-votes.print https://www.foxnews.com/politics/kentucky-gov-matt-bevin-rai...) 1: A politician's wife is convicted of actual voting fraud; involving absentee ballots (which notably, voter ID laws don't really address, re: the topic a few replies up): https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/new-mexico/articles/2019-11-07/wife-of-espanola-city-councilman-is-convicted-of-voter-fraud https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/new-mexico/articles/... 2: Another article about item 1: https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/jury-finds-laura-seeds-guilty-on-six-counts-of-election/image_f10cf54b-2f74-52c7-9e78-4e16fa50db87.html https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/jury-finds... 3: A legal case relating to publicity of voter information, because the plaintiff wants to investigate for voter fraud: https://www.minnpost.com/state-government/2019/11/does-the-minnesota-secretary-of-state-get-to-decide-what-data-about-voters-is-public/ https://www.minnpost.com/state-government/2019/11/does-the-m... 4: An article about voter roll irregularities in Florida; the most interesting bits being some incorrect registrations (which do not necessarily indicate "fraud" as we'd commonly call it, though it may be illegal), and a few hundred cases of people who do seem to have cast multiple or irregular ballots (some from an unmentioned time period, and some from recent elections): https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-ne-palm-voter-errors-flagged-20191107-73lo4tz5yvgb5pahxsw3z5b4oe-story.html https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-ne-palm-vot... 5: A CalTech team analyses a different set of voter data and finds no fraud: https://www.cnet.com/news/new-algorithms-go-fraud-hunting-in-voter-database/ https://www.cnet.com/news/new-algorithms-go-fraud-hunting-in... 6: An article in which the convicted politician's wife in article (1) complains that it is a witch hunt: https://www.abqjournal.com/1388391/laura-seeds-alleges-voter-fraud-case-is-a-witch-hunt.html https://www.abqjournal.com/1388391/laura-seeds-alleges-voter... 7: A letter to the editor alleging that according to the Heritage Fund, there is no widespread voter fraud problem: https://www.thegazette.com/subject/opinion/letters-to-the-editor/voter-impersonation-a-real-threat-really-20191104 https://www.thegazette.com/subject/opinion/letters-to-the-ed... 8: An article about the convicted politician's wife in (1), this from before the case was decided: https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/jurors-weighing-espa-ola-voter-fraud-case/article_bd30d8d0-6f21-5561-9dbd-91580801ed0f.html https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/jurors-wei... 9: An article about students in North Carolina who will be unable to use their student IDs to vote: https://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2019/11/07/asheville-buncombe-tech-student-ids-wont-valid-nc-voting-2020-heres-why/4163380002/ https://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2019/11/07/as... Your link to a news search doesn't support your assertion that there are examples all over the place.

paulgb 7y ago

Sure, but those rules should be changed first. When people move to change the voting requirements without taking the steps to make sure everyone has reasonable access to ID, it sure looks like they're hoping for a specific partisan outcome and I have no problem with people assuming bad faith.

jadell 7y ago

Yes, but let's make sure IDs are easily attainable and that every eligible voter already has one, and then let's make them required to vote. Doing the last step without the prerequisites isn't going to increase democracy, it will only suppress already marginalized groups of voters.