6 ms·

I Was the Fastest Girl in America, Until I Joined Nike

79 points by laurex 7y ago

hiei 7y ago
No dietician? That's honestly shocking for a "program" coming out of Nike.
im3w1l 7y ago
So is the story that the coaching was more ambitious than she could take or was it just misguided in general?
- ska 7y ago
  wrong-headed, it reads like.
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  > In a program that should be tailored to every individual athlete, "more ambitious than [any given athlete] can take" sounds like a fundamental failure.
  - im3w1l 7y ago
    It may have been a calculated "go big or go home" gamble.
The_Amp_Walrus 7y ago
So, the coaches of an athletics program underfed an athlete to the point where she "lost her period for three years and broke five bones". Sounds terrible. The article claims: > A big part of this problem is that women and girls are being forced to meet athletic standards that are based on how men and boys develop. If you try to make a girl fit a boy’s development timeline, her body is at risk of breaking down. That is what happened to Cain. I wish they would expand on this a little more - are the coaches broadly incompetent or do they have a specific misconception about how to train women? What do they belive that is causing them to underfeed their athletes?
- jwalton 7y ago
  "Female Athlete Triad"[1] is the explanation of what's happening to these young women. I have a hard time believing Nike coaches don't know about it, though, because I'm a slightly overweight male software developer, and I know about it. Maybe they don't believe it's real? I, too, have nothing but questions. 1: https://draxe.com/health/female-athlete-triad/ https://draxe.com/health/female-athlete-triad/
- tburmeister 7y ago
  Thinner is faster, up to a point, but as noted in the article if you take it too far it leads to injury. I suspect a lot of the grey area stuff NOP was infamous for, i.e. abuse of prescription drugs and therapeutic use exemptions, allowed Salazar to be more successful with this approach with other athletes. For most runners, the short term speed gains of losing weight ultimately do not outweigh the lost training from injury, but if you can get a shady doctor to help with the negative side effects then the calculus changes. Also, I wouldn't say Salazar is incompetent, but he was supposed to be this distance running genius and it seems more and more like he was no better than the dozens of crappy DI college coaches out there who get a lot of talented athletes, grind them up, and see who survives, leaving a trail of injury and burnout in their wake. Salazar just had access to better talent and drugs.
  - The_Amp_Walrus 7y ago
    Interesting, thanks!
- conistonwater 7y ago
  It could also be a problem of misaligned incentives. When athletes get injured, it is the athletes who get fired, not the coaches.
  - benmmurphy 7y ago
    The incentives might not event be misaligned. It could be a lottery where some peoples bodies will survive the training and other people's bodies will fail but it might still make sense to roll the dice because the payoff is so large. It could also not make sense and the coaches are just exploiting it. But I think it is a lot of effort to get the data to work out whether it makes sense or not. It is kind of shitty if the coaches know this and don't inform the athlete. But maybe there is a psychological aspect to it and if they inform the athlete then they basically sabotage the chance they have of winning the lottery.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
Is there a high profile, competitive environment where children perform that has not resulted in a lot of damaged children? Examples from music (Jackson Five), TV and Movie child actors, this example, and the USA gymnastics all come to mind.
- smt88 7y ago
  Ballet has destroyed the emotional well-being (and, in some cases, adolescent bodies) of every woman I know who participated. They all have extreme issues with body image, self-esteem, and the perception of achievement, and all of them ascribe these problems to their ballet teachers. (To be more specific, I'm talking about four women. One of them was semi-pro before changing her mind and going to college. The others just did it for fun as kids, not unlike other kids playing recreational basketball.)
  - me_me_me 7y ago
    And their toes! My mother was telling me about few physio patient she was helping. Their toes were absolute mess. But no wonder toes are not meant to support whole body.
- dansman805 7y ago
  Robotics competitions fit your criteria decently well. They are safe, have educational value, competitive and are decently high profile. More specifically, FIRST and Vex are both fairly wide spread.
  - GhostVII 7y ago
    I don't think that is high profile in the same way though. You will never be well known for doing well at FIRST since the highest level of competition only has ~6k entrants worldwide. Even at the level of FIRST, I think there are some unhealthy things that come out of the competitiveness, with teams where professional engineers do almost all the work, or a small set of students get a lot more attention than others. But it has a tonne of great benefits despite some small issues.
- 7y ago
jbob2000 7y ago
She thought she was joining Nike to be an athlete, but she was really joining to sell shoes. Can’t have a thick muscular woman as a poster girl, that won’t sell shoes! Edit: It’s sarcasm. Clearly Nike doesn’t actually care about athletic ability if the only goal of their coaching was to get their female athletes to lose weight.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
  >Can’t have a thick muscular woman as a poster girl, that won’t sell shoes! Serena Williams would beg to differ. Instead of shrinking from her body shape or her age or her motherhood, she has embraced them and she and her brand are stronger for it. Of course, not everyone has the ability and confidence of Serena Williams.
  - jbob2000 7y ago
    Yeah she jumped out to me as the exception. I don’t really think she represents “fitness” in the eyes of the consumer though, she’s more of a “power and determination” person. Her sponsors are a bank, Gatorade, and a sporting goods company. None of those companies sell their product based on beauty/fit-ness.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
PopeDotNinja 7y ago
No pay wall: http://archive.is/6JMAR http://archive.is/6JMAR
RickJWagner 7y ago
Wow. With programs like that, sweatshops, and general bad acting, Nike is some rotten company.
- nickthemagicman 7y ago
  But their marketing is great! That's really all that matters anymore.
- Hoasi 7y ago
  Isn't that known for years?
- Ocerge 7y ago
  It's piling on a bit, but having worked in tech at Nike, this kind of thing is unsurprising. Huge, bloated company with a _really_ bad clique problem.

79 points by laurex 7y ago

hiei 7y ago

No dietician? That's honestly shocking for a "program" coming out of Nike.

im3w1l 7y ago

So is the story that the coaching was more ambitious than she could take or was it just misguided in general?

ska 7y ago
wrong-headed, it reads like.
PhasmaFelis 7y ago
> In a program that should be tailored to every individual athlete, "more ambitious than [any given athlete] can take" sounds like a fundamental failure.
- im3w1l 7y ago
  It may have been a calculated "go big or go home" gamble.

The_Amp_Walrus 7y ago

So, the coaches of an athletics program underfed an athlete to the point where she "lost her period for three years and broke five bones". Sounds terrible. The article claims: > A big part of this problem is that women and girls are being forced to meet athletic standards that are based on how men and boys develop. If you try to make a girl fit a boy’s development timeline, her body is at risk of breaking down. That is what happened to Cain. I wish they would expand on this a little more - are the coaches broadly incompetent or do they have a specific misconception about how to train women? What do they belive that is causing them to underfeed their athletes?

jwalton 7y ago
"Female Athlete Triad"[1] is the explanation of what's happening to these young women. I have a hard time believing Nike coaches don't know about it, though, because I'm a slightly overweight male software developer, and I know about it. Maybe they don't believe it's real? I, too, have nothing but questions. 1: https://draxe.com/health/female-athlete-triad/ https://draxe.com/health/female-athlete-triad/
tburmeister 7y ago
Thinner is faster, up to a point, but as noted in the article if you take it too far it leads to injury. I suspect a lot of the grey area stuff NOP was infamous for, i.e. abuse of prescription drugs and therapeutic use exemptions, allowed Salazar to be more successful with this approach with other athletes. For most runners, the short term speed gains of losing weight ultimately do not outweigh the lost training from injury, but if you can get a shady doctor to help with the negative side effects then the calculus changes. Also, I wouldn't say Salazar is incompetent, but he was supposed to be this distance running genius and it seems more and more like he was no better than the dozens of crappy DI college coaches out there who get a lot of talented athletes, grind them up, and see who survives, leaving a trail of injury and burnout in their wake. Salazar just had access to better talent and drugs.
- The_Amp_Walrus 7y ago
  Interesting, thanks!
conistonwater 7y ago
It could also be a problem of misaligned incentives. When athletes get injured, it is the athletes who get fired, not the coaches.
- benmmurphy 7y ago
  The incentives might not event be misaligned. It could be a lottery where some peoples bodies will survive the training and other people's bodies will fail but it might still make sense to roll the dice because the payoff is so large. It could also not make sense and the coaches are just exploiting it. But I think it is a lot of effort to get the data to work out whether it makes sense or not. It is kind of shitty if the coaches know this and don't inform the athlete. But maybe there is a psychological aspect to it and if they inform the athlete then they basically sabotage the chance they have of winning the lottery.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago

Is there a high profile, competitive environment where children perform that has not resulted in a lot of damaged children? Examples from music (Jackson Five), TV and Movie child actors, this example, and the USA gymnastics all come to mind.

smt88 7y ago
Ballet has destroyed the emotional well-being (and, in some cases, adolescent bodies) of every woman I know who participated. They all have extreme issues with body image, self-esteem, and the perception of achievement, and all of them ascribe these problems to their ballet teachers. (To be more specific, I'm talking about four women. One of them was semi-pro before changing her mind and going to college. The others just did it for fun as kids, not unlike other kids playing recreational basketball.)
- me_me_me 7y ago
  And their toes! My mother was telling me about few physio patient she was helping. Their toes were absolute mess. But no wonder toes are not meant to support whole body.
dansman805 7y ago
Robotics competitions fit your criteria decently well. They are safe, have educational value, competitive and are decently high profile. More specifically, FIRST and Vex are both fairly wide spread.
- GhostVII 7y ago
  I don't think that is high profile in the same way though. You will never be well known for doing well at FIRST since the highest level of competition only has ~6k entrants worldwide. Even at the level of FIRST, I think there are some unhealthy things that come out of the competitiveness, with teams where professional engineers do almost all the work, or a small set of students get a lot more attention than others. But it has a tonne of great benefits despite some small issues.
7y ago

jbob2000 7y ago

She thought she was joining Nike to be an athlete, but she was really joining to sell shoes. Can’t have a thick muscular woman as a poster girl, that won’t sell shoes! Edit: It’s sarcasm. Clearly Nike doesn’t actually care about athletic ability if the only goal of their coaching was to get their female athletes to lose weight.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
>Can’t have a thick muscular woman as a poster girl, that won’t sell shoes! Serena Williams would beg to differ. Instead of shrinking from her body shape or her age or her motherhood, she has embraced them and she and her brand are stronger for it. Of course, not everyone has the ability and confidence of Serena Williams.
- jbob2000 7y ago
  Yeah she jumped out to me as the exception. I don’t really think she represents “fitness” in the eyes of the consumer though, she’s more of a “power and determination” person. Her sponsors are a bank, Gatorade, and a sporting goods company. None of those companies sell their product based on beauty/fit-ness.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

PopeDotNinja 7y ago

No pay wall: http://archive.is/6JMAR http://archive.is/6JMAR

RickJWagner 7y ago

Wow. With programs like that, sweatshops, and general bad acting, Nike is some rotten company.

nickthemagicman 7y ago
But their marketing is great! That's really all that matters anymore.
Hoasi 7y ago
Isn't that known for years?
Ocerge 7y ago
It's piling on a bit, but having worked in tech at Nike, this kind of thing is unsurprising. Huge, bloated company with a _really_ bad clique problem.