6 ms·

Hmmm number 3 doesn't seem like a negative or counter-intuitive. I feel like software devs (in bay area startup world, or FAANG) are usually a certain demograph

Hmmm number 3 doesn't seem like a negative or counter-intuitive. I feel like software devs (in bay area startup world, or FAANG) are usually a certain demographic and they usually come from a place of privilege where they've never had to do the mental work that's involved in communicating effectively across diverse demographics.

PragmaticPulp 7y ago
> Hmmm number 3 doesn't seem like a negative or counter-intuitive. This is the core of the problem: Some people like the idea of robotic, semi-scripted conversations according to a well-defined set of rules. They think that if there's a rulebook, they can predict how people will respond to them. Or worse, they think they can control how people react and respond. Yes, we should put some constraints around egregious communication issues as well as provide general guidelines, but the important thing is to let people interact naturally within those loose constraints. > I feel like software devs (in bay area startup world, or FAANG) are usually a certain demographic and they usually come from a place of privilege where they've never had to do the mental work that's involved in communicating effectively across diverse demographics. It's a fallacy, though. You can't create perfect rules for human conversation. Everyone needs to build those interpersonal and conversational skills, even if it's somewhat painful along the way. The basic skills can be guided with simple rules and guidelines, but the problem comes when you try to control too much of the conversation or set the constraints so tightly that it's a minefield to navigate.
- bluntfang 7y ago
  >Some people like the idea of robotic, semi-scripted conversations according to a well-defined set of rules. Thinking about the words you use in daily conversation with diverse peers doesn't have to be "robotic". You're just being exposed to how other people in less privileged positions have to think and act, and that's uncomfortable. >You can't create perfect rules for human conversation. Is anyone here claiming that their goal is perfection? >Everyone needs to build those interpersonal and conversational skills And there's nothing wrong with receiving help and guidance while you're on that journey.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    > You're just being exposed to how other people in less privileged positions have to think and act, and that's uncomfortable. No, it has nothing to do with that. As an unprivileged person, CoCs were harder for me to follow because I grew up using much harsher language and being more direct. CoCs mainly seem to be about privileged people affirming to each other how “woke” they are.
  - concordDance 7y ago
    > Thinking about the words you use in daily conversation with diverse peers doesn't have to be "robotic". I'd much rather save my mental energy for the coding. If having to carefully think about how every turn of phrase could be seen and completely giving up on being able to make friends at work is the price of hiring less privileged people? I'd rather stay in my privileged monoculture thanks. The underprivileged can go join the company with the underprivileged monoculture and everyone can be happier, communicating in the style they prefer with people who are ok with that style.
    - bluntfang 7y ago
      you're gross.
    - twothumbsup 7y ago
      "i cant make friends if i cant make dumb jokes about minorities and women"
- dwoozle 7y ago
  I like robotic conversations at work because my work is not important to me, and I don’t want to bring my “full self” to work. I like to get in, do my shit, conduct communication in a formalized manner, and get out in 6 hours and go do stuff that matters to me.
hrktb 7y ago
It’s easy to come to a point where we only talk in coded ways to follow the letter of the rules. People start saying “thanks for your feedback, we’ll look into this issue when planning the next iteration” as code for “you could be pissing in the wind”, and most communication becomes non sensical where you need to feel if they actually mean what they’re saying in text form. Then we lament that face to face time is needed to communicate efficiently with people.
- bluntfang 7y ago
  That sounds fine to me. Pissing in the wind is a gendered statement. Let's stop doing that. I see nothing but positives coming from that change. If you feel like you're talking in code...maybe consider WHY it's a good idea to not say things that other people find exclusionary.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    > Pissing in the wind is a gendered statement. I’ve seen videos that beg to differ.
    - bradknowles 7y ago
      One the one hand, that is technically true. I'm sure there do exist some videos that demonstrate that fact. On the other, across my 53+ years of living on this planet, I don't think I have yet met a single female who would try to participate in that kind of activity. And I've met more than a few males who would actually be entertained by that outcome. So, on the weight of my own personal experience, I would have to agree with the section you quoted and responded to.
      - braindeath 7y ago
        More murders are committed by males. Does that make the simple verb “murder” inherently gendered? Is that your claim? because that’s the only possible relevance your odd personal testimony seems to be implying.
    - 7y ago
matheusmoreira 7y ago
It is a negative. Nobody wants to navigate a social minefield where everything they say can and will be used against them in a court of public opinion. If social interaction becomes too difficult and risky, it's better to not participate at all. This is why people get stonewalled. Why would anyone speak their mind when there are serious consequences?
- bluntfang 7y ago
  >Nobody wants to navigate a social minefield where everything they say can and will be used against them in a court of public opinion. Agreed! My point is that non-white non-cisgendered non-male people are already doing this in order to exist in the workplace! Let's make the world more comfortable for everyone and stop excluding people because you don't want to lose your boys club.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    > My point is that non-white non-cisgendered non-male people are already doing this in order to exist in the workplace No they aren’t. Non-white people aren’t avoiding the use of emojis in code review and they certainly aren’t against telling someone an idea is bad.
    - bradknowles 7y ago
      Speaking as an old white cisgendered male, my opinion is that if you're white, cisgendered, and male, then you're playing the game of life on easy mode. You never get a chance to even see what it's like for everyone else who is forced to play on regular mode, or worse.
      - kortilla 7y ago
        Cool story. CoCs are invented by people “playing on easy mode” to signal to other easy mode players of their guilt. They do nothing to help the people on regular or hard.
      - 7y ago
commandlinefan 7y ago
> software devs are usually a certain demographic and they usually come from a place of privilege where they've never had to do the mental work that's involved in communicating effectively across diverse demographics. This strikes me as a surprising assertion: most software devs (including in the Bay Area, FAANG) are recent immigrants (or temporary guest workers) who are, by definition, navigating a culture very different than the one they grew up in.
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > most software devs (including in the Bay Area, FAANG) are recent immigrants The only data I can find that speaks to that (from 2015) has far less than half foreign-born (39.2% of "software engineers", 27.4% of "computer programmers", etc.), and obviously not all of those are going to be "recent immigrants". https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/foreign-born-stem-workers-united-states https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/foreign-...
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    40% is a lot. Don't forget tech's exponential growth in jobs over the past few decades.
  - ragona 7y ago
    I’d be curious to see that from FAANG specifically, since they drive so much international hiring.
- geofft 7y ago
  > most software devs (including in the Bay Area, FAANG) are recent immigrants (or temporary guest workers) The only data I can find supporting this is that tech workers in Silicon Valley as a whole are majority foreign-born. But that includes everyone from Oracle to HP to Wipro, not just FAANG. (And I think the definition of Silicon Valley in this data is the traditional one, i.e., not including San Francisco.) A subset of those are recent immigrants.

PragmaticPulp 7y ago

> Hmmm number 3 doesn't seem like a negative or counter-intuitive. This is the core of the problem: Some people like the idea of robotic, semi-scripted conversations according to a well-defined set of rules. They think that if there's a rulebook, they can predict how people will respond to them. Or worse, they think they can control how people react and respond. Yes, we should put some constraints around egregious communication issues as well as provide general guidelines, but the important thing is to let people interact naturally within those loose constraints. > I feel like software devs (in bay area startup world, or FAANG) are usually a certain demographic and they usually come from a place of privilege where they've never had to do the mental work that's involved in communicating effectively across diverse demographics. It's a fallacy, though. You can't create perfect rules for human conversation. Everyone needs to build those interpersonal and conversational skills, even if it's somewhat painful along the way. The basic skills can be guided with simple rules and guidelines, but the problem comes when you try to control too much of the conversation or set the constraints so tightly that it's a minefield to navigate.

bluntfang 7y ago
>Some people like the idea of robotic, semi-scripted conversations according to a well-defined set of rules. Thinking about the words you use in daily conversation with diverse peers doesn't have to be "robotic". You're just being exposed to how other people in less privileged positions have to think and act, and that's uncomfortable. >You can't create perfect rules for human conversation. Is anyone here claiming that their goal is perfection? >Everyone needs to build those interpersonal and conversational skills And there's nothing wrong with receiving help and guidance while you're on that journey.
- kortilla 7y ago
  > You're just being exposed to how other people in less privileged positions have to think and act, and that's uncomfortable. No, it has nothing to do with that. As an unprivileged person, CoCs were harder for me to follow because I grew up using much harsher language and being more direct. CoCs mainly seem to be about privileged people affirming to each other how “woke” they are.
- concordDance 7y ago
  > Thinking about the words you use in daily conversation with diverse peers doesn't have to be "robotic". I'd much rather save my mental energy for the coding. If having to carefully think about how every turn of phrase could be seen and completely giving up on being able to make friends at work is the price of hiring less privileged people? I'd rather stay in my privileged monoculture thanks. The underprivileged can go join the company with the underprivileged monoculture and everyone can be happier, communicating in the style they prefer with people who are ok with that style.
  - bluntfang 7y ago
    you're gross.
  - twothumbsup 7y ago
    "i cant make friends if i cant make dumb jokes about minorities and women"
dwoozle 7y ago
I like robotic conversations at work because my work is not important to me, and I don’t want to bring my “full self” to work. I like to get in, do my shit, conduct communication in a formalized manner, and get out in 6 hours and go do stuff that matters to me.

hrktb 7y ago

It’s easy to come to a point where we only talk in coded ways to follow the letter of the rules. People start saying “thanks for your feedback, we’ll look into this issue when planning the next iteration” as code for “you could be pissing in the wind”, and most communication becomes non sensical where you need to feel if they actually mean what they’re saying in text form. Then we lament that face to face time is needed to communicate efficiently with people.

bluntfang 7y ago
That sounds fine to me. Pissing in the wind is a gendered statement. Let's stop doing that. I see nothing but positives coming from that change. If you feel like you're talking in code...maybe consider WHY it's a good idea to not say things that other people find exclusionary.
- kortilla 7y ago
  > Pissing in the wind is a gendered statement. I’ve seen videos that beg to differ.
  - bradknowles 7y ago
    One the one hand, that is technically true. I'm sure there do exist some videos that demonstrate that fact. On the other, across my 53+ years of living on this planet, I don't think I have yet met a single female who would try to participate in that kind of activity. And I've met more than a few males who would actually be entertained by that outcome. So, on the weight of my own personal experience, I would have to agree with the section you quoted and responded to.
    - braindeath 7y ago
      More murders are committed by males. Does that make the simple verb “murder” inherently gendered? Is that your claim? because that’s the only possible relevance your odd personal testimony seems to be implying.
  - 7y ago

matheusmoreira 7y ago

It is a negative. Nobody wants to navigate a social minefield where everything they say can and will be used against them in a court of public opinion. If social interaction becomes too difficult and risky, it's better to not participate at all. This is why people get stonewalled. Why would anyone speak their mind when there are serious consequences?

bluntfang 7y ago
>Nobody wants to navigate a social minefield where everything they say can and will be used against them in a court of public opinion. Agreed! My point is that non-white non-cisgendered non-male people are already doing this in order to exist in the workplace! Let's make the world more comfortable for everyone and stop excluding people because you don't want to lose your boys club.
- kortilla 7y ago
  > My point is that non-white non-cisgendered non-male people are already doing this in order to exist in the workplace No they aren’t. Non-white people aren’t avoiding the use of emojis in code review and they certainly aren’t against telling someone an idea is bad.
  - bradknowles 7y ago
    Speaking as an old white cisgendered male, my opinion is that if you're white, cisgendered, and male, then you're playing the game of life on easy mode. You never get a chance to even see what it's like for everyone else who is forced to play on regular mode, or worse.
    - kortilla 7y ago
      Cool story. CoCs are invented by people “playing on easy mode” to signal to other easy mode players of their guilt. They do nothing to help the people on regular or hard.
    - 7y ago

commandlinefan 7y ago

> software devs are usually a certain demographic and they usually come from a place of privilege where they've never had to do the mental work that's involved in communicating effectively across diverse demographics. This strikes me as a surprising assertion: most software devs (including in the Bay Area, FAANG) are recent immigrants (or temporary guest workers) who are, by definition, navigating a culture very different than the one they grew up in.

dragonwriter 7y ago
> most software devs (including in the Bay Area, FAANG) are recent immigrants The only data I can find that speaks to that (from 2015) has far less than half foreign-born (39.2% of "software engineers", 27.4% of "computer programmers", etc.), and obviously not all of those are going to be "recent immigrants". https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/foreign-born-stem-workers-united-states https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/foreign-...
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  40% is a lot. Don't forget tech's exponential growth in jobs over the past few decades.
- ragona 7y ago
  I’d be curious to see that from FAANG specifically, since they drive so much international hiring.
geofft 7y ago
> most software devs (including in the Bay Area, FAANG) are recent immigrants (or temporary guest workers) The only data I can find supporting this is that tech workers in Silicon Valley as a whole are majority foreign-born. But that includes everyone from Oracle to HP to Wipro, not just FAANG. (And I think the definition of Silicon Valley in this data is the traditional one, i.e., not including San Francisco.) A subset of those are recent immigrants.