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It's interesting that "Millenials got shafted". When I went to college in the 1980's, it was much cheaper than now - I admit that. I lived in a very small dor

It's interesting that "Millenials got shafted". When I went to college in the 1980's, it was much cheaper than now - I admit that. I lived in a very small dorm room with 4 guys in it and one bathroom on a whole floor of dorm rooms. I worked part time during the school year and full time during the summer to pay for it. I had no car, no TV and only ate food the school provided via my meal plan. I now work for a large public university. Let's compare. Most students don't have jobs at all. Most students live in high end apartments (lots of these apartments cost more than my mortgage payment for my 4 bedroom house - per person). These students visit the town restaurants quite often and we have bars that are overflowing on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights with college students. When I've asked how this happens, I'm told that college loans let you pay for room and board so they happily get the most expensive housing possible because it's "free". Almost all students have cars and lots of them have a "parking ticket budget" so have no problems parking illegally and paying for it. It's also "free" because of their student loan. Who is shafting whom?

whatshisface 7y ago
A bad loan is actually a disaster for both parties. The borrower gets indentured for life and the lender loses a bunch of money.
- g2ah5z 7y ago
  Except that student loan debt can't be discharged in bankruptcy. These ultra risky loans are being extended precisely because the government essentially removed all of the risk.
  - rootusrootus 7y ago
    And what makes it even more appalling is that you still have to pay interest. A zero risk investment should have zero return.
JamesBarney 7y ago
My father went to college in the 80's and he owned a tv, a car, and went to bars occasionally. He paid for that by working. A large portion of my friends paid for similar lifestyle by working in the mid 2000's. You might be comparing your especially frugal college experience to a different one. But tuition has been the college expense that has sky rocketed and made it difficult/impossible to pay your own way though college. My father paid around ~2,000 for tuition, my little sister would pay close to ~11,000 to go the same college which comes close to doubling the total cost of attending college.
zip1234 7y ago
I have a cousin that used took the max for his college loans and then whatever he had left after tuition he used for trips to Japan, Europe, etc every summer and lots of fancy restaurants and clothes. College loans are insane right now.
marcus_holmes 7y ago
the vast debts incurred by the US education system are a new thing for this generation. But I was mostly speaking of my experience in the UK, where the boomers paid no tuition fees and got a grant to cover living expenses. GenX generally paid no or little fees. Millenials are being saddled with more and more cost.
ofcourseianal 7y ago
You can stop thinking about all the auxiliary stuff you mentioned, and just compare, for example, the ratio of tuition : minimum wage from your college education and a contemporary one.
- wedowhatwedo 7y ago
  That's what the students of the day are doing. Education is so expensive so I might as well live great while doing it. An extra $10K or $15K a year in living expenses on my loan is no big deal, right? That adds up when you need to start making payments on a loan that is ~$40K higher than it could have been.
  - sushid 7y ago
    Where are you getting this data? And FWIW it’s not unreasonable to pay 10-15k for shitty housing annually if you study in a city. What do you expect them to do? Go back in time and buy a nice home for 60k?
theflyinghorse 7y ago
I'm sorry I don't believe you. My experience (as of 6 years ago) had been that I see students having part time jobs which aren't enough to cover much of anything other than food, partially rent, and occasional going out. There were of course wealthy students who did all the things you talked about: going out, trips, expensive trips etc. but by no means were they the majority.
- sct202 7y ago
  It's probably confirmation bias. Luxury college student housing definitely exists, but it's for rich Americans and rich foreigners. The maximum you can get in Federal undergraduate student loans as a dependent freshman is $5.5k / year. If you go over that you have to get private student loans, and most people don't get private loans. 92% of student loans are Federal and the remainder are private. https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/student-loans/student-loan-debt/ https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/student-loans/student-... Nobody is going to be able to afford a luxury apartment plus tuition on that a year.
  - P_I_Staker 7y ago
    It's worth noting that many students get supplemental loans, and some do use it to bolster their lifestyle. I have a friend that never worked, and got no help from his parents. He did splurge for slightly nicer housing, but it was reasonable (~$400/mo vs $250-350). However there were other people that bought TVs with it. Never heard anything about luxury college housing, unless your parents were loaded.
SolaceQuantum 7y ago
I am a recent large public university grad. In my freshman year I lived in a very small dorm room with 4 folks in it and one bathroom on the whole floor. This was mandatory to attend the university. Everyone I knew worked part time during the school year and either worked full time to pursued REU (Research experience for undergrad) or others. Since my campus is only really manageable via driving, most people owned really, really cheap cars. I'm talking at least one person in my friend group getting in a car accident every winter because no one could afford winter tires type stuff. No one owned a TV and several couldn't afford the meal plan so they went without food and had to beg friends with meal plans to get them some food that day. All of them are heavily in debt. Several dropped out because they couldn't afford it anymore, even with loans. Whose anecdata is correct?
- magduf 7y ago
  It's been a while since I was in college, but I got through mostly with loans, and also some part-time and intern work, but college costs were also lower back then. The loans only went so far; it wasn't an unlimited source of funds, so I still had to be judicious in how I spent it, so I had roommates most of the time, for instance, even though I would have preferred not to. As for your public university, I really have to wonder why these poor students went there, as it sounds like a pretty terrible school. What kind of public university is only manageable via driving? I went to 2 different, very large, state universities, and both were quite manageable with walking or biking. I biked at both so I could get around faster. Even in America's car culture, both these schools were definitely not set up for driving to class; they had parking lots at the edges of campus, which were frequently overcrowded, and you still had to walk a long way to class, so it made more sense to avoid this unless you were a non-traditional student. Dorms were most certainly within walking distance of everything (though again, biking was faster, though not for everyone). The meal plans however were expensive and a rip-off, though at my freshman/sophomore school it was optional so I didn't bother, and got food from other places for less money. Anyway, maybe these kids should have chosen a better university, namely one that doesn't require a car. Cars are very expensive to own and maintain when you're poor, and college students don't usually have the tools or knowledge (or time!) to save money by doing their own work. That one thing alone probably would have made all the difference for your friends who dropped out due to finances.
triceratops 7y ago
> Most students don't have jobs at all. Citation needed. 40% of undergrads work at least 30 hours/week[1] so I'm willing to wager that the majority of them have some sort of job. > Most students live in high end apartments (lots of these apartments cost more than my mortgage payment for my 4 bedroom house - per person) Where are you living that rents are so high but property is so cheap? Or did you buy a long time ago? And again do you have a citation for "most" (which is defined as > 50%)? The data says most undergrads still live in college-owned housing.[2] > When I've asked how this happens, I'm told that college loans let you pay for room and board so they happily get the most expensive housing possible because it's "free". Almost all students have cars and lots of them have a "parking ticket budget" so have no problems parking illegally and paying for it. It's also "free" because of their student loan. There's a term for these people: "financially illiterate". They have always existed and will continue to exist. Do you have any evidence that there are more of them now? Anecdotes are not data. Your personal observations don't invalidate reality. 1. https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/workinglearners/ https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/workinglearners/ 2. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/most-on-campus https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/most-on-campus
- P_I_Staker 7y ago
  Here, here. Rich people and financially irresponsible people have existed forever. OP probably thinks people on welfare drive Cadillacs too. Also, I can't get over how OP talks about students not using school services (dorm/chow hall). They didn't at my school because it was a terrible value. You paid upwards of $10 for shit food, and more in rent than off campus. The only people that used the dorms more than they had to were forced by their parents, or were able to get it for free.
  - vonmoltke 7y ago
    You make good points, but they would be better delivered without the mild personal attacks.
fuqmachine 7y ago
You see a couple of rich trust fund kids enjoying dad-given amenities and ignore all the poorer students not doing any of the things that you listed. I shared an attic with someone and slept on the floor because there was no room for a bed. And I went to a rich private school. Also how many unis are there in the US? You work for all of them and know what "most" students live like? Most importantly, even if what you said is true, what's an extra $5k a year to eat out and drink on top of your $150k tuition loans? The screwing has already been done.
davemp 7y ago
I worked full time during summers (making over x4 minimum wage), TA'd during three semesters, went to a CC for the first two years, a state school for the second half. I lived with roommates for $500/mo for a year then with my parents for a the rest. At the end I still came out with $15k in dept. That's getting shafted. For me it's fine because I had a career easily lined up. I don't see how the average person isn't getting hosed now though.
thatfrenchguy 7y ago
> high end apartments (lots of these apartments cost more than my mortgage payment for my 4 bedroom house - per person) You mean rent is high, not that the service they get is good I think. Sharing rooms should not draw you 1000$ a month in a dorm.
P_I_Staker 7y ago
>I lived in a very small dorm room with 4 guys in it and one bathroom on a whole floor of dorm rooms. This pretty much still exists at many unis. Dorm housing was absurdly overpriced, which is why many schools required it. Unless you had a good reason, the dorms were a suckers bet. > I worked part time during the school year and full time during the summer to pay for it. This is very common > I had no car, no TV and only ate food the school provided via my meal plan. How are you supposed to hold down a job without a car in this day and age? People didn't use the meal plan because it was a terrible value. Going to a restaurant was cheaper. > Most students don't have jobs at all. According to you. Have you looked at data then vs. now? Also, you can barely even pull in enough to make rent, so what's the point? It doesn't make a dent. > Most students live in high end apartments (lots of these apartments cost more than my mortgage payment for my 4 bedroom house - per person). WTF are you talking about? Maybe at your university. I lived in a death trap @$180/month with a sketchy landlord I almost had to fight once. I'd hardly met anyone that lived somewhere nice. Maybe one or two, that would concede it was a nice thing, and a bit of a splurge, but they weren't paying that much anyway. Your whole comment reads like someone that thinks people on welfare are living high on the hog and eating lobster. EDIT: Added some stuff about how terrible a value college room and board is.

whatshisface 7y ago

A bad loan is actually a disaster for both parties. The borrower gets indentured for life and the lender loses a bunch of money.

g2ah5z 7y ago
Except that student loan debt can't be discharged in bankruptcy. These ultra risky loans are being extended precisely because the government essentially removed all of the risk.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  And what makes it even more appalling is that you still have to pay interest. A zero risk investment should have zero return.

JamesBarney 7y ago

My father went to college in the 80's and he owned a tv, a car, and went to bars occasionally. He paid for that by working. A large portion of my friends paid for similar lifestyle by working in the mid 2000's. You might be comparing your especially frugal college experience to a different one. But tuition has been the college expense that has sky rocketed and made it difficult/impossible to pay your own way though college. My father paid around ~2,000 for tuition, my little sister would pay close to ~11,000 to go the same college which comes close to doubling the total cost of attending college.

zip1234 7y ago

I have a cousin that used took the max for his college loans and then whatever he had left after tuition he used for trips to Japan, Europe, etc every summer and lots of fancy restaurants and clothes. College loans are insane right now.

marcus_holmes 7y ago

the vast debts incurred by the US education system are a new thing for this generation. But I was mostly speaking of my experience in the UK, where the boomers paid no tuition fees and got a grant to cover living expenses. GenX generally paid no or little fees. Millenials are being saddled with more and more cost.

ofcourseianal 7y ago

You can stop thinking about all the auxiliary stuff you mentioned, and just compare, for example, the ratio of tuition : minimum wage from your college education and a contemporary one.

wedowhatwedo 7y ago
That's what the students of the day are doing. Education is so expensive so I might as well live great while doing it. An extra $10K or $15K a year in living expenses on my loan is no big deal, right? That adds up when you need to start making payments on a loan that is ~$40K higher than it could have been.
- sushid 7y ago
  Where are you getting this data? And FWIW it’s not unreasonable to pay 10-15k for shitty housing annually if you study in a city. What do you expect them to do? Go back in time and buy a nice home for 60k?

theflyinghorse 7y ago

I'm sorry I don't believe you. My experience (as of 6 years ago) had been that I see students having part time jobs which aren't enough to cover much of anything other than food, partially rent, and occasional going out. There were of course wealthy students who did all the things you talked about: going out, trips, expensive trips etc. but by no means were they the majority.

sct202 7y ago
It's probably confirmation bias. Luxury college student housing definitely exists, but it's for rich Americans and rich foreigners. The maximum you can get in Federal undergraduate student loans as a dependent freshman is $5.5k / year. If you go over that you have to get private student loans, and most people don't get private loans. 92% of student loans are Federal and the remainder are private. https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/student-loans/student-loan-debt/ https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/student-loans/student-... Nobody is going to be able to afford a luxury apartment plus tuition on that a year.
- P_I_Staker 7y ago
  It's worth noting that many students get supplemental loans, and some do use it to bolster their lifestyle. I have a friend that never worked, and got no help from his parents. He did splurge for slightly nicer housing, but it was reasonable (~$400/mo vs $250-350). However there were other people that bought TVs with it. Never heard anything about luxury college housing, unless your parents were loaded.

SolaceQuantum 7y ago

I am a recent large public university grad. In my freshman year I lived in a very small dorm room with 4 folks in it and one bathroom on the whole floor. This was mandatory to attend the university. Everyone I knew worked part time during the school year and either worked full time to pursued REU (Research experience for undergrad) or others. Since my campus is only really manageable via driving, most people owned really, really cheap cars. I'm talking at least one person in my friend group getting in a car accident every winter because no one could afford winter tires type stuff. No one owned a TV and several couldn't afford the meal plan so they went without food and had to beg friends with meal plans to get them some food that day. All of them are heavily in debt. Several dropped out because they couldn't afford it anymore, even with loans. Whose anecdata is correct?

magduf 7y ago
It's been a while since I was in college, but I got through mostly with loans, and also some part-time and intern work, but college costs were also lower back then. The loans only went so far; it wasn't an unlimited source of funds, so I still had to be judicious in how I spent it, so I had roommates most of the time, for instance, even though I would have preferred not to. As for your public university, I really have to wonder why these poor students went there, as it sounds like a pretty terrible school. What kind of public university is only manageable via driving? I went to 2 different, very large, state universities, and both were quite manageable with walking or biking. I biked at both so I could get around faster. Even in America's car culture, both these schools were definitely not set up for driving to class; they had parking lots at the edges of campus, which were frequently overcrowded, and you still had to walk a long way to class, so it made more sense to avoid this unless you were a non-traditional student. Dorms were most certainly within walking distance of everything (though again, biking was faster, though not for everyone). The meal plans however were expensive and a rip-off, though at my freshman/sophomore school it was optional so I didn't bother, and got food from other places for less money. Anyway, maybe these kids should have chosen a better university, namely one that doesn't require a car. Cars are very expensive to own and maintain when you're poor, and college students don't usually have the tools or knowledge (or time!) to save money by doing their own work. That one thing alone probably would have made all the difference for your friends who dropped out due to finances.

triceratops 7y ago

> Most students don't have jobs at all. Citation needed. 40% of undergrads work at least 30 hours/week[1] so I'm willing to wager that the majority of them have some sort of job. > Most students live in high end apartments (lots of these apartments cost more than my mortgage payment for my 4 bedroom house - per person) Where are you living that rents are so high but property is so cheap? Or did you buy a long time ago? And again do you have a citation for "most" (which is defined as > 50%)? The data says most undergrads still live in college-owned housing.[2] > When I've asked how this happens, I'm told that college loans let you pay for room and board so they happily get the most expensive housing possible because it's "free". Almost all students have cars and lots of them have a "parking ticket budget" so have no problems parking illegally and paying for it. It's also "free" because of their student loan. There's a term for these people: "financially illiterate". They have always existed and will continue to exist. Do you have any evidence that there are more of them now? Anecdotes are not data. Your personal observations don't invalidate reality. 1. https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/workinglearners/ https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/workinglearners/ 2. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/most-on-campus https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/most-on-campus

P_I_Staker 7y ago
Here, here. Rich people and financially irresponsible people have existed forever. OP probably thinks people on welfare drive Cadillacs too. Also, I can't get over how OP talks about students not using school services (dorm/chow hall). They didn't at my school because it was a terrible value. You paid upwards of $10 for shit food, and more in rent than off campus. The only people that used the dorms more than they had to were forced by their parents, or were able to get it for free.
- vonmoltke 7y ago
  You make good points, but they would be better delivered without the mild personal attacks.

fuqmachine 7y ago

You see a couple of rich trust fund kids enjoying dad-given amenities and ignore all the poorer students not doing any of the things that you listed. I shared an attic with someone and slept on the floor because there was no room for a bed. And I went to a rich private school. Also how many unis are there in the US? You work for all of them and know what "most" students live like? Most importantly, even if what you said is true, what's an extra $5k a year to eat out and drink on top of your $150k tuition loans? The screwing has already been done.

davemp 7y ago

I worked full time during summers (making over x4 minimum wage), TA'd during three semesters, went to a CC for the first two years, a state school for the second half. I lived with roommates for $500/mo for a year then with my parents for a the rest. At the end I still came out with $15k in dept. That's getting shafted. For me it's fine because I had a career easily lined up. I don't see how the average person isn't getting hosed now though.

thatfrenchguy 7y ago

> high end apartments (lots of these apartments cost more than my mortgage payment for my 4 bedroom house - per person) You mean rent is high, not that the service they get is good I think. Sharing rooms should not draw you 1000$ a month in a dorm.

P_I_Staker 7y ago

>I lived in a very small dorm room with 4 guys in it and one bathroom on a whole floor of dorm rooms. This pretty much still exists at many unis. Dorm housing was absurdly overpriced, which is why many schools required it. Unless you had a good reason, the dorms were a suckers bet. > I worked part time during the school year and full time during the summer to pay for it. This is very common > I had no car, no TV and only ate food the school provided via my meal plan. How are you supposed to hold down a job without a car in this day and age? People didn't use the meal plan because it was a terrible value. Going to a restaurant was cheaper. > Most students don't have jobs at all. According to you. Have you looked at data then vs. now? Also, you can barely even pull in enough to make rent, so what's the point? It doesn't make a dent. > Most students live in high end apartments (lots of these apartments cost more than my mortgage payment for my 4 bedroom house - per person). WTF are you talking about? Maybe at your university. I lived in a death trap @$180/month with a sketchy landlord I almost had to fight once. I'd hardly met anyone that lived somewhere nice. Maybe one or two, that would concede it was a nice thing, and a bit of a splurge, but they weren't paying that much anyway. Your whole comment reads like someone that thinks people on welfare are living high on the hog and eating lobster. EDIT: Added some stuff about how terrible a value college room and board is.