6 ms·

> For me, Christianity was astrology: something that made me feel superficially better sometimes, but was really just pushing me further and further away from a

> For me, Christianity was astrology: something that made me feel superficially better sometimes, but was really just pushing me further and further away from any actual healing or personal development. > I grew up in an evangelical, southern-baptist church. Well there's your problem. Not all denominations are created equal. > None of it was without ulterior motives. Yes, this is what you get when you take away the real heart of Christianity, all you have left is a useless shadow of the real thing that can't produce its proper effects in a soul. I really have to write a book about this. There are too many people who have absolutely no idea what Christianity is, and because of that, they all keep abandoning it and refuse to even consider it. Or they hold fast to an emasculated, false version of it, and spread this counterfeit religion believing it to be the real thing, despite it not producing the fruits of it within their own lives. But in the meantime, check out: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHr17i6CU5FgiHD3hI0k0PnCjrxdphNSG https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHr17i6CU5FgiHD3hI0k0... and https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6znY3VjqN25fNvGKVRLU0tLZ-TC8aM_3 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6znY3VjqN25fNvGKVRLU...

_bxg1 7y ago
I actually went to a Christian university, and right around the time I started to realize I needed to leave the belief system I'd grown up with, I also took a couple of (required) classes on theology/the history of Christianity, so I do have a perspective outside of what I started with. There were also some pretty intelligent and worldly professors there who happened to be Christians, some of whom I had some really good discussions with. Hilariously, both the school and most of said professors called themselves Baptist, just like the church I started in. What all of it taught me is this: the labels of religion really have no bearing on what the heart of the group is actually going to be like. There are lots of versions of religion out there, many of them using the same symbols and texts, and some of them are good and healthy and some of them are bad and destructive (and everything in-between). What you're going to get in a particular case is just totally random. The things that really matter are completely divorced from the packaging.
- sdegutis 7y ago
  I noticed the same thing: what religion you are (and whether you have one) isn't a guarantee of whether you're a "good person." I have a Catholic friend who spends his time complaining, being negative, and mainly serving himself, but then you also have Venerable Fulton Sheen who was also Catholic and an amazing guy. And I know some Lutherans who love Jesus more than many Catholics that I know do. And some non-religious people who are more forgiving than many Christians I know. Just last night I was telling my children about this principle, and explaining the Catholic perspective of it to them: it all comes down to how much love a person has in their heart. And love is naturally selfless and self-sacrificing. The famous hyperbole is "God is love", not that God isn't also God, but that if you have love in you, you have God in you to some extent. And the more a person loves someone, the more they will seek to find out what they can do to please that person and what they should avoid to not offend that person. So there will always be people who love Jesus but don't even know he's God! Because they God's name, which isn't so much a bunch of letters as it is what he stands for: goodness, kindness, gentleness, unity, self-sacrifice, selflessness, mercy, courage, hope, trust, and so on. Anyone who loves these things loves God, even if they've only heard lies about Jesus. They may hate that false version of Jesus, but they love the true one! That's not to say our religion is useless, and that anyone can just "be a good person" without ever belonging to it. But if you want to please someone and give them fish, but didn't know that they hate seafood, they will see and appreciate your good intentions, but also kind of wish you looked further into what they really like and dislike. This is what the Catholic Church is: through it, God told the world what he loves and what displeases him. Not in the hypocrisy of the many non-Catholics out there who go to Mass every Sunday and shout at you for being homosexual. But in her immutable teachings and in her explanations of what she meant when she wrote down the Gospels.
NotSammyHagar 7y ago
Uh, I think pretty much all christian denominations would say everyone else does not know what real christianity. My wife says it all the time when I point out some absurdity of religion. I'll bet $100 she's not in the same sect/group you are.
- authoritarian 7y ago
  Yes, it's the same kind of rhetoric that people in pretty much all religions/beliefs/denominations use about all the others to trick people into joining. Yours is wrong, ours is right. Yours is misguided, ours knows the true way. Yours is corrupt, ours is trustworthy and wholesome. Yours won't help your soul reach enlightenment, ours will save you. Yours is counterfeit, ours is real.
  - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
    The sad thing to me that there are plenty of people in pretty much and religious group that are well meaning, hoping to get some direction or happiness in their religious study and observation. But I'm sad to say from my perspective they are mostly wasting their time. I want others to find solace, wisdom, goodness from their religion. And not kill me because I'm not in their group.
  - sdegutis 7y ago
    It's a fallacy to say that just because some denominations say that, all must therefore be incorrect. It's the whole "I'm Sparticus" situation. There really is a Sparticus. Any serious Christain who seriously studies history will see clearly that the Catholic Church as it is now is the same as it was on Pentecost, being the true church from the beginning, and that all Protestant churches have descended from it and decided to change their doctrines for various non-legitimate reasons.
    - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
      There doesn't have to be a Spartacus! I'll just say that when I was a teenager and realized that there's a reason we don't see supernatural things, and people with cell phones don't see and take pictures of ghosts, monsters, angels, big foot, the virgin of Guadalupe and flying saucers - because they probably don't exist.
threatofrain 7y ago
How do you know you understand real Christianity, as opposed to other Christians who hold fast to an emasculated version?
- sdegutis 7y ago
  For one thing, the Bible says "You'll know them by their fruits," and although the Catholic Church has produced a lot of sinners, they're about on par with other denominations and other religions, philosophies, and non-religions, whereas the number of Saints who practiced heroic virtue is far greater in Catholicism than any other form of religion or lack. There's also countless medically and scientifically verified miracles. They're still happening today, and it's not just "oh trust me it was a miracle", but actual medical professionals testify under oath that such-and-such truly happened and that it isn't possible under any known laws of physics or medicine etc. And then there's just the fact that it's the only philosophy that truly lines up with real life experience. Every other form of Christianity will eventually say "it just is what it is, you just have to have faith." But this is the only one that fully satisfied my intellectual mind without having to give up intellectual integrity. I also found out about Fulton Sheen this year, and he understood this the same way. He's extremely underrated and should be read and listened to by anyone who considers themselves intellectual. And finally, it's the only philosophy or religion that has ever fixed me. All others failed.
  - authoritarian 7y ago
    > the number of Saints who practiced heroic virtue is far greater in Catholicism than any other form of religion or lack Such as Mother Teresa, who allowed people to die in horrible conditions in hospices where patients were given insufficient food and no painkillers because "suffering makes you closer to god," and then went to a costly, fancy facility and took painkillers herself when it was her time to die. >There's also countless medically and scientifically verified miracles. This is absurd. Just because something happens that can't be fully explained by science with current knowledge and technology does not make it a religious miracle. Also, pretending that is true, how would that be evidence of you belonging to a denomination that is "real Christianity." Perhaps it was one of the other countless religions that try to falsely attribute things they don't understand to 'miracles' >it's the only philosophy that truly lines up with real life experience Satanism truly lines up with my real life experiences. Is that evidence that that is the true or real religion? >But this is the only one that fully satisfied my intellectual mind without having to give up intellectual integrity. You just said that you believe that there are medically and scientifically verified miracles, so I'd say this statement is false. How do you feel about dinosaurs? How old do you think the earth is? >And finally, it's the only philosophy or religion that has ever fixed me This I can understand and respect. IMO the rest of what you said is mostly brainwashing/indoctrination.
NotSammyHagar 7y ago
Okay, I listed to it for 20 minutes (I was going to stop after 5 ;-)). That guy was a good speaker. His church has had some great philosophical thinkers and done a lot for charity and helping people. How do you reconcile that with the terrible things that have been part of it. That church has itself had some serious problems, including being part of destroying the culture of people in the new world, oppressing women, went through periods of multiple competing leaders who demonized each other, suppressed and basically enabled continuing abuse of children by religious leaders in the current era. I find it very difficult to reconcile these two competing facts, which seems to be pretty common in other christian denominations also (such as the endlessly depressing stories in Dan Savage's old columns on church leaders abusing their congregations).
- sdegutis 7y ago
  > How do you reconcile that with the terrible things that have been part of it. That church has itself had some serious problems The Church is not just her members, which admittedly do fail so very often and in serious ways. If the Church were just the members, I would not be Catholic today. But the Church is far more: she is "the pillar and the bulwark of the truth" according to the Bible. She is the mother of all Saints. She is the keeper of the true interpretation of God's Word, because she also authored the Gospels. When I say "the Catholic Church", I usually mean the collective writings of the saints, and the lives of the saints -- who had the Spirit of Christ and showed what it means to really reach the full potential of being a Christian[1] -- and the 7 Sacraments which are the source of the power of Jesus within us. [1] Check out the writings of St. Francis de Sales, the sermons of Ven. Fulton Sheen, the life of St. Francis of Assisi or of St. Ignatius of Loyola, the writings of St. Theresa of Calcutta, and the autobiography of St. Therese of Lisieux
- sergiosgc 7y ago
  I can try to answer that, even though I'm not actively catholic. You must evaluate an entity (person, organization, company) by what it is, not what it was. What it was can be a hint about what it is, but you must be available to reevaluate. You must be available to _forgive_, which happens to be a central tenet of Christianity.

_bxg1 7y ago

I actually went to a Christian university, and right around the time I started to realize I needed to leave the belief system I'd grown up with, I also took a couple of (required) classes on theology/the history of Christianity, so I do have a perspective outside of what I started with. There were also some pretty intelligent and worldly professors there who happened to be Christians, some of whom I had some really good discussions with. Hilariously, both the school and most of said professors called themselves Baptist, just like the church I started in. What all of it taught me is this: the labels of religion really have no bearing on what the heart of the group is actually going to be like. There are lots of versions of religion out there, many of them using the same symbols and texts, and some of them are good and healthy and some of them are bad and destructive (and everything in-between). What you're going to get in a particular case is just totally random. The things that really matter are completely divorced from the packaging.

sdegutis 7y ago
I noticed the same thing: what religion you are (and whether you have one) isn't a guarantee of whether you're a "good person." I have a Catholic friend who spends his time complaining, being negative, and mainly serving himself, but then you also have Venerable Fulton Sheen who was also Catholic and an amazing guy. And I know some Lutherans who love Jesus more than many Catholics that I know do. And some non-religious people who are more forgiving than many Christians I know. Just last night I was telling my children about this principle, and explaining the Catholic perspective of it to them: it all comes down to how much love a person has in their heart. And love is naturally selfless and self-sacrificing. The famous hyperbole is "God is love", not that God isn't also God, but that if you have love in you, you have God in you to some extent. And the more a person loves someone, the more they will seek to find out what they can do to please that person and what they should avoid to not offend that person. So there will always be people who love Jesus but don't even know he's God! Because they God's name, which isn't so much a bunch of letters as it is what he stands for: goodness, kindness, gentleness, unity, self-sacrifice, selflessness, mercy, courage, hope, trust, and so on. Anyone who loves these things loves God, even if they've only heard lies about Jesus. They may hate that false version of Jesus, but they love the true one! That's not to say our religion is useless, and that anyone can just "be a good person" without ever belonging to it. But if you want to please someone and give them fish, but didn't know that they hate seafood, they will see and appreciate your good intentions, but also kind of wish you looked further into what they really like and dislike. This is what the Catholic Church is: through it, God told the world what he loves and what displeases him. Not in the hypocrisy of the many non-Catholics out there who go to Mass every Sunday and shout at you for being homosexual. But in her immutable teachings and in her explanations of what she meant when she wrote down the Gospels.

NotSammyHagar 7y ago

Uh, I think pretty much all christian denominations would say everyone else does not know what real christianity. My wife says it all the time when I point out some absurdity of religion. I'll bet $100 she's not in the same sect/group you are.

authoritarian 7y ago
Yes, it's the same kind of rhetoric that people in pretty much all religions/beliefs/denominations use about all the others to trick people into joining. Yours is wrong, ours is right. Yours is misguided, ours knows the true way. Yours is corrupt, ours is trustworthy and wholesome. Yours won't help your soul reach enlightenment, ours will save you. Yours is counterfeit, ours is real.
- NotSammyHagar 7y ago
  The sad thing to me that there are plenty of people in pretty much and religious group that are well meaning, hoping to get some direction or happiness in their religious study and observation. But I'm sad to say from my perspective they are mostly wasting their time. I want others to find solace, wisdom, goodness from their religion. And not kill me because I'm not in their group.
- sdegutis 7y ago
  It's a fallacy to say that just because some denominations say that, all must therefore be incorrect. It's the whole "I'm Sparticus" situation. There really is a Sparticus. Any serious Christain who seriously studies history will see clearly that the Catholic Church as it is now is the same as it was on Pentecost, being the true church from the beginning, and that all Protestant churches have descended from it and decided to change their doctrines for various non-legitimate reasons.
  - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
    There doesn't have to be a Spartacus! I'll just say that when I was a teenager and realized that there's a reason we don't see supernatural things, and people with cell phones don't see and take pictures of ghosts, monsters, angels, big foot, the virgin of Guadalupe and flying saucers - because they probably don't exist.

threatofrain 7y ago

How do you know you understand real Christianity, as opposed to other Christians who hold fast to an emasculated version?

sdegutis 7y ago
For one thing, the Bible says "You'll know them by their fruits," and although the Catholic Church has produced a lot of sinners, they're about on par with other denominations and other religions, philosophies, and non-religions, whereas the number of Saints who practiced heroic virtue is far greater in Catholicism than any other form of religion or lack. There's also countless medically and scientifically verified miracles. They're still happening today, and it's not just "oh trust me it was a miracle", but actual medical professionals testify under oath that such-and-such truly happened and that it isn't possible under any known laws of physics or medicine etc. And then there's just the fact that it's the only philosophy that truly lines up with real life experience. Every other form of Christianity will eventually say "it just is what it is, you just have to have faith." But this is the only one that fully satisfied my intellectual mind without having to give up intellectual integrity. I also found out about Fulton Sheen this year, and he understood this the same way. He's extremely underrated and should be read and listened to by anyone who considers themselves intellectual. And finally, it's the only philosophy or religion that has ever fixed me. All others failed.
- authoritarian 7y ago
  > the number of Saints who practiced heroic virtue is far greater in Catholicism than any other form of religion or lack Such as Mother Teresa, who allowed people to die in horrible conditions in hospices where patients were given insufficient food and no painkillers because "suffering makes you closer to god," and then went to a costly, fancy facility and took painkillers herself when it was her time to die. >There's also countless medically and scientifically verified miracles. This is absurd. Just because something happens that can't be fully explained by science with current knowledge and technology does not make it a religious miracle. Also, pretending that is true, how would that be evidence of you belonging to a denomination that is "real Christianity." Perhaps it was one of the other countless religions that try to falsely attribute things they don't understand to 'miracles' >it's the only philosophy that truly lines up with real life experience Satanism truly lines up with my real life experiences. Is that evidence that that is the true or real religion? >But this is the only one that fully satisfied my intellectual mind without having to give up intellectual integrity. You just said that you believe that there are medically and scientifically verified miracles, so I'd say this statement is false. How do you feel about dinosaurs? How old do you think the earth is? >And finally, it's the only philosophy or religion that has ever fixed me This I can understand and respect. IMO the rest of what you said is mostly brainwashing/indoctrination.

NotSammyHagar 7y ago

Okay, I listed to it for 20 minutes (I was going to stop after 5 ;-)). That guy was a good speaker. His church has had some great philosophical thinkers and done a lot for charity and helping people. How do you reconcile that with the terrible things that have been part of it. That church has itself had some serious problems, including being part of destroying the culture of people in the new world, oppressing women, went through periods of multiple competing leaders who demonized each other, suppressed and basically enabled continuing abuse of children by religious leaders in the current era. I find it very difficult to reconcile these two competing facts, which seems to be pretty common in other christian denominations also (such as the endlessly depressing stories in Dan Savage's old columns on church leaders abusing their congregations).

sdegutis 7y ago
> How do you reconcile that with the terrible things that have been part of it. That church has itself had some serious problems The Church is not just her members, which admittedly do fail so very often and in serious ways. If the Church were just the members, I would not be Catholic today. But the Church is far more: she is "the pillar and the bulwark of the truth" according to the Bible. She is the mother of all Saints. She is the keeper of the true interpretation of God's Word, because she also authored the Gospels. When I say "the Catholic Church", I usually mean the collective writings of the saints, and the lives of the saints -- who had the Spirit of Christ and showed what it means to really reach the full potential of being a Christian[1] -- and the 7 Sacraments which are the source of the power of Jesus within us. [1] Check out the writings of St. Francis de Sales, the sermons of Ven. Fulton Sheen, the life of St. Francis of Assisi or of St. Ignatius of Loyola, the writings of St. Theresa of Calcutta, and the autobiography of St. Therese of Lisieux
sergiosgc 7y ago
I can try to answer that, even though I'm not actively catholic. You must evaluate an entity (person, organization, company) by what it is, not what it was. What it was can be a hint about what it is, but you must be available to reevaluate. You must be available to _forgive_, which happens to be a central tenet of Christianity.