8 ms·

> I watched nuns offer compassionate care to the dying...I became uncomfortably aware that New Agers do not build hospitals or feed alcoholics – they buy self-a

by _bxg1 7y ago

> I watched nuns offer compassionate care to the dying...I became uncomfortably aware that New Agers do not build hospitals or feed alcoholics – they buy self-actualisation at the cash register. > Half the time, though, I couldn’t get a word in. It turned out what most people want is the chance to unload for an hour. > “Get to a doctor,” I told him. “Now.” I grew up in an evangelical, southern-baptist church. I indeed saw many mission trips, community events, charitable efforts. But there was always a catch: it was always a veiled effort to convert people. You didn't have to convert of course, but that's what the whole thing was about. Every greeting, every friendly conversation, every volunteer effort. They were all just spoonfuls of sugar. None of it was without ulterior motives. It was like one of those business "seminars" that really just wants you to buy something. Every interaction with another human was steeped in this mentality. Of course, when asked, they would argue that converting people is the most compassionate thing you can possibly do. I have to disagree. What I never got, even as a convert, was a real chance to unload to someone who would actually, truly listen. As someone with deep anxiety and depression, nobody ever told me to go to a therapist. Not once. They would always nod, and smile sympathetically, and say "have faith and leave it up to God". Every religion - even every religious body - is different. I just felt the need to provide a counterexample to the rosy light that traditional religion was left in by the author. For me, Christianity was astrology: something that made me feel superficially better sometimes, but was really just pushing me further and further away from any actual healing or personal development.

ErotemeObelus 7y ago
You just learned the hard way that right-wing authoritarians don't believe internal state exists.
authoritarian 7y ago
Yes, I knew a girl who was raped and her mother would only allow her to talk to their priest rather than medical and/or mental health professionals. People in the thread are talking about how astrology, religion, psychics, etc. are all ok because they don't cause harm but I believe they can and do cause harm in many cases. Of the people I know that strongly believe in things like astrologists, psychics, or religion a large percentage also believe other absurd conspiracy theories such as vaccines causing autism, the moon landing being fake, etc. I think we set a dangerous precedent by allowing people to blindly buy into things like astrology, without calling them out. I of course don't believe these kinds of things should be made illegal/regulated as people should be able to make their own decisions, but I also don't think they should be humored and blindly tolerated by the rest of the population.
- TomMarius 7y ago
  If Nazism is illegal, so should be Catholicism and other religions. Either go full freedom of speech/thought or not, no in betweens. The amount of suffering Catholicism and Christianity in general has caused is probably comparable to Nazism anyways. To me, it's selling lies to vulnerable people; and not just that, it's lies that not only steal money, but directly make the lives (especially its mental side) of these people and their families including (especially!) children considerably worse. Despicable, way worse than selling shit vacuum cleaners or life insurance.
  - authoritarian 7y ago
    While I personally agree that religion overall has a major negative impact on society, and has throughout history, I still don't think they should be made illegal or regulated. People can believe what they want to believe, and trying to control thoughts and ideologies is absolutely not something I would ever support. It would set an incredibly dangerous precedent
    - mattigames 7y ago
      They should at least pay taxes just like anybody else, but most countries don't even have that.
      - authoritarian 7y ago
        Yes, I agree that religions should have to pay taxes. When I said regulate, I meant regulating peoples right to practice
        skissane 7y ago
        Tax laws vary from country to country and even within countries, but it is possible to exempt religious groups from taxation without giving them special treatment, simply by applying the principle that non-profit groups aren't taxed. So, the local church doesn't pay taxes, but the neighbourhood sports club doesn't pay taxes either, since both are non-profit entities.
sdegutis 7y ago
> For me, Christianity was astrology: something that made me feel superficially better sometimes, but was really just pushing me further and further away from any actual healing or personal development. > I grew up in an evangelical, southern-baptist church. Well there's your problem. Not all denominations are created equal. > None of it was without ulterior motives. Yes, this is what you get when you take away the real heart of Christianity, all you have left is a useless shadow of the real thing that can't produce its proper effects in a soul. I really have to write a book about this. There are too many people who have absolutely no idea what Christianity is, and because of that, they all keep abandoning it and refuse to even consider it. Or they hold fast to an emasculated, false version of it, and spread this counterfeit religion believing it to be the real thing, despite it not producing the fruits of it within their own lives. But in the meantime, check out: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHr17i6CU5FgiHD3hI0k0PnCjrxdphNSG https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHr17i6CU5FgiHD3hI0k0... and https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6znY3VjqN25fNvGKVRLU0tLZ-TC8aM_3 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6znY3VjqN25fNvGKVRLU...
- _bxg1 7y ago
  I actually went to a Christian university, and right around the time I started to realize I needed to leave the belief system I'd grown up with, I also took a couple of (required) classes on theology/the history of Christianity, so I do have a perspective outside of what I started with. There were also some pretty intelligent and worldly professors there who happened to be Christians, some of whom I had some really good discussions with. Hilariously, both the school and most of said professors called themselves Baptist, just like the church I started in. What all of it taught me is this: the labels of religion really have no bearing on what the heart of the group is actually going to be like. There are lots of versions of religion out there, many of them using the same symbols and texts, and some of them are good and healthy and some of them are bad and destructive (and everything in-between). What you're going to get in a particular case is just totally random. The things that really matter are completely divorced from the packaging.
  - sdegutis 7y ago
    I noticed the same thing: what religion you are (and whether you have one) isn't a guarantee of whether you're a "good person." I have a Catholic friend who spends his time complaining, being negative, and mainly serving himself, but then you also have Venerable Fulton Sheen who was also Catholic and an amazing guy. And I know some Lutherans who love Jesus more than many Catholics that I know do. And some non-religious people who are more forgiving than many Christians I know. Just last night I was telling my children about this principle, and explaining the Catholic perspective of it to them: it all comes down to how much love a person has in their heart. And love is naturally selfless and self-sacrificing. The famous hyperbole is "God is love", not that God isn't also God, but that if you have love in you, you have God in you to some extent. And the more a person loves someone, the more they will seek to find out what they can do to please that person and what they should avoid to not offend that person. So there will always be people who love Jesus but don't even know he's God! Because they God's name, which isn't so much a bunch of letters as it is what he stands for: goodness, kindness, gentleness, unity, self-sacrifice, selflessness, mercy, courage, hope, trust, and so on. Anyone who loves these things loves God, even if they've only heard lies about Jesus. They may hate that false version of Jesus, but they love the true one! That's not to say our religion is useless, and that anyone can just "be a good person" without ever belonging to it. But if you want to please someone and give them fish, but didn't know that they hate seafood, they will see and appreciate your good intentions, but also kind of wish you looked further into what they really like and dislike. This is what the Catholic Church is: through it, God told the world what he loves and what displeases him. Not in the hypocrisy of the many non-Catholics out there who go to Mass every Sunday and shout at you for being homosexual. But in her immutable teachings and in her explanations of what she meant when she wrote down the Gospels.
DataWorker 7y ago
Your experience isn’t typical and most people who do good deeds do it because humans get psychic benefit from helping others. Is the joy of giving an ulterior motive in your mind? Most evangelicals don’t care as much about converting others as they do about feeling pious and close to God themselves. Mormons and JW are somewhat exceptional in their missionary focus, oddly do since they believe in a finite number of people will be saved but then again religion isn’t about logic but faith and psychic benefit.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  Let me clarify: there were many genuinely compassionate people there. When I say "ulterior motives" I don't mean (necessarily) selfish motives, but an incredibly warped and misguided idea of what it means to "help people". They scooped everyone into a single proverbial bucket as "needing to say a prayer to accept Jesus" and didn't generally interface with people as real, multifaceted humans who might have more complex needs. They thought the way to help the most people was to industrialize and streamline everything.
DataWorker 7y ago
Is the joy of giving an ulterior motive in your mind? Most evangelicals don’t care as much about converting others as they do about feeling pious and close to God themselves, at least that’s been my experience. Rather than convert it seems like many want to hoard piety and Hoover up all the holiness for themselves. I think it’s all about absolution for our sins.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  [copied from a comment I left elsewhere] Let me clarify: there were many genuinely compassionate people there. When I say "ulterior motives" I don't mean (necessarily) selfish motives, but an incredibly warped and misguided idea of what it means to "help people". They scooped everyone into a single proverbial bucket as "needing to say a prayer to accept Jesus" and didn't generally interface with people as real, multifaceted humans who might have more complex needs. They thought the way to help the most people was to industrialize and streamline everything.
dreamcompiler 7y ago
I grew up around Christianity in the American south and this is very true. The genius of Christianity is that it's a mind virus: In order to be a good Christian you have to convert others to Christianity. It's the GPL of religions.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  While the virus analogy feels heavy-handed to me... the GPL one is actually incredibly on-point. I'll have to remember that one.
- joshuarubin 7y ago
  I’m a “modern orthodox” Jew. We don’t proselytize (since there’s no downside to _not_ being Jewish in our view). Rather we focus on in-reach and retention. Anyway, this comment made me laugh and now I’m trying to figure out what license applies to us. It’s got to be some sort of walled garden, the lock-in is real.
  - dreamcompiler 7y ago
    I've never had a Jewish person try to convert me, regardless of their orthodoxy. And frankly I've always found the "we must argue with God" doctrine much more palatable than the blind faith of Christianity.
- mattigames 7y ago
  The Islam and a few other religions realized a similar path: Good muslims have as many kids as they can, you don't need to convert many people if you can just indoctrinate them the easiest way possible: When you are their parent therefor take your words as absolute truths.
  - skissane 7y ago
    The success of "indoctrination" is highly variable. There are heaps of people out there who have rejected the religion of their parents. I remember when I was a teenager and I started doubting my mother's Catholicism. I started reading philosophy books and trying to have arguments with her about the existence of God. She was totally unable to engage, she had zero interest in rational arguments for and against religion, she never approached religion with a critical eye, to her it was just "I believed what I was told, why won't you?". Not an approach likely to win over a sceptical teenager.
sparrish 7y ago
And why wouldn't they try to convert them? If they truly believe that the people they're helping physically are doomed to an eternity in hell and that they have information about the only way to avoid that (through Jesus Christ) - it would be incredibly selfish to not share that information. My point is their actions are completely in-line with their beliefs. It's irrational for them to act otherwise.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  And this is the same argument that has been recited to me more times than I can count, and which my father still recites to me periodically. > And why wouldn't they try to convert them? Because, one would hope, they have the emotional intelligence to see and accept the clear and present outlier in their oversimplified idea of human nature who's sitting right in front of them. And to - even if it doesn't result in a real change to their belief system - at least be able to set everything aside for a moment and be present with the real person in front of them.
- mattigames 7y ago
  Is irrational for them to have those believes in the first place, but that didn't stop them from believing them, so...
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  Maybe my bible searching isn't work, do you know of a scripture that says Christians should convert people?
  - sparrish 7y ago
    He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.” - Mark 16:15 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. - Matthew 28:19-20 Give praise to the Lord, proclaim his name; make known among the nations what he has done. - Psalm 105:1 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: “I have made you a light for the Gentiles,that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.” - Acts 13:47 Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. - 1 Peter 3:15 There's plenty more than these if you need them. Sharing the good news of what God has done has historically been one of the greatest goals of Jesus followers.
tryitnow 7y ago
I think that's a very specific brand of Christianity. Mainline Protestant groups and most Catholics don't really emphasize conversions. I see relatively little harm in mainstream Protestant churches and the more liberal Catholic parishes. Evangelical and conservative Catholic churches start to creep me out, even if people do get some value from them. In my view, if you get value from having a Christian faith practice, it would be best to quit more evangelical and dogmatic churches and start attending more open-minded, less conversion-oriented churches, e.g. Episcopalian, Methodist, Metropolitan, etc.

by _bxg1 7y ago

ErotemeObelus 7y ago

You just learned the hard way that right-wing authoritarians don't believe internal state exists.

authoritarian 7y ago

Yes, I knew a girl who was raped and her mother would only allow her to talk to their priest rather than medical and/or mental health professionals. People in the thread are talking about how astrology, religion, psychics, etc. are all ok because they don't cause harm but I believe they can and do cause harm in many cases. Of the people I know that strongly believe in things like astrologists, psychics, or religion a large percentage also believe other absurd conspiracy theories such as vaccines causing autism, the moon landing being fake, etc. I think we set a dangerous precedent by allowing people to blindly buy into things like astrology, without calling them out. I of course don't believe these kinds of things should be made illegal/regulated as people should be able to make their own decisions, but I also don't think they should be humored and blindly tolerated by the rest of the population.

TomMarius 7y ago
If Nazism is illegal, so should be Catholicism and other religions. Either go full freedom of speech/thought or not, no in betweens. The amount of suffering Catholicism and Christianity in general has caused is probably comparable to Nazism anyways. To me, it's selling lies to vulnerable people; and not just that, it's lies that not only steal money, but directly make the lives (especially its mental side) of these people and their families including (especially!) children considerably worse. Despicable, way worse than selling shit vacuum cleaners or life insurance.
- authoritarian 7y ago
  While I personally agree that religion overall has a major negative impact on society, and has throughout history, I still don't think they should be made illegal or regulated. People can believe what they want to believe, and trying to control thoughts and ideologies is absolutely not something I would ever support. It would set an incredibly dangerous precedent
  - mattigames 7y ago
    They should at least pay taxes just like anybody else, but most countries don't even have that.
    - authoritarian 7y ago
      Yes, I agree that religions should have to pay taxes. When I said regulate, I meant regulating peoples right to practice
      - skissane 7y ago
        Tax laws vary from country to country and even within countries, but it is possible to exempt religious groups from taxation without giving them special treatment, simply by applying the principle that non-profit groups aren't taxed. So, the local church doesn't pay taxes, but the neighbourhood sports club doesn't pay taxes either, since both are non-profit entities.

sdegutis 7y ago

> For me, Christianity was astrology: something that made me feel superficially better sometimes, but was really just pushing me further and further away from any actual healing or personal development. > I grew up in an evangelical, southern-baptist church. Well there's your problem. Not all denominations are created equal. > None of it was without ulterior motives. Yes, this is what you get when you take away the real heart of Christianity, all you have left is a useless shadow of the real thing that can't produce its proper effects in a soul. I really have to write a book about this. There are too many people who have absolutely no idea what Christianity is, and because of that, they all keep abandoning it and refuse to even consider it. Or they hold fast to an emasculated, false version of it, and spread this counterfeit religion believing it to be the real thing, despite it not producing the fruits of it within their own lives. But in the meantime, check out: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHr17i6CU5FgiHD3hI0k0PnCjrxdphNSG https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLHr17i6CU5FgiHD3hI0k0... and https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6znY3VjqN25fNvGKVRLU0tLZ-TC8aM_3 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6znY3VjqN25fNvGKVRLU...

_bxg1 7y ago
I actually went to a Christian university, and right around the time I started to realize I needed to leave the belief system I'd grown up with, I also took a couple of (required) classes on theology/the history of Christianity, so I do have a perspective outside of what I started with. There were also some pretty intelligent and worldly professors there who happened to be Christians, some of whom I had some really good discussions with. Hilariously, both the school and most of said professors called themselves Baptist, just like the church I started in. What all of it taught me is this: the labels of religion really have no bearing on what the heart of the group is actually going to be like. There are lots of versions of religion out there, many of them using the same symbols and texts, and some of them are good and healthy and some of them are bad and destructive (and everything in-between). What you're going to get in a particular case is just totally random. The things that really matter are completely divorced from the packaging.
- sdegutis 7y ago
  I noticed the same thing: what religion you are (and whether you have one) isn't a guarantee of whether you're a "good person." I have a Catholic friend who spends his time complaining, being negative, and mainly serving himself, but then you also have Venerable Fulton Sheen who was also Catholic and an amazing guy. And I know some Lutherans who love Jesus more than many Catholics that I know do. And some non-religious people who are more forgiving than many Christians I know. Just last night I was telling my children about this principle, and explaining the Catholic perspective of it to them: it all comes down to how much love a person has in their heart. And love is naturally selfless and self-sacrificing. The famous hyperbole is "God is love", not that God isn't also God, but that if you have love in you, you have God in you to some extent. And the more a person loves someone, the more they will seek to find out what they can do to please that person and what they should avoid to not offend that person. So there will always be people who love Jesus but don't even know he's God! Because they God's name, which isn't so much a bunch of letters as it is what he stands for: goodness, kindness, gentleness, unity, self-sacrifice, selflessness, mercy, courage, hope, trust, and so on. Anyone who loves these things loves God, even if they've only heard lies about Jesus. They may hate that false version of Jesus, but they love the true one! That's not to say our religion is useless, and that anyone can just "be a good person" without ever belonging to it. But if you want to please someone and give them fish, but didn't know that they hate seafood, they will see and appreciate your good intentions, but also kind of wish you looked further into what they really like and dislike. This is what the Catholic Church is: through it, God told the world what he loves and what displeases him. Not in the hypocrisy of the many non-Catholics out there who go to Mass every Sunday and shout at you for being homosexual. But in her immutable teachings and in her explanations of what she meant when she wrote down the Gospels.

DataWorker 7y ago

Your experience isn’t typical and most people who do good deeds do it because humans get psychic benefit from helping others. Is the joy of giving an ulterior motive in your mind? Most evangelicals don’t care as much about converting others as they do about feeling pious and close to God themselves. Mormons and JW are somewhat exceptional in their missionary focus, oddly do since they believe in a finite number of people will be saved but then again religion isn’t about logic but faith and psychic benefit.

_bxg1 7y ago
Let me clarify: there were many genuinely compassionate people there. When I say "ulterior motives" I don't mean (necessarily) selfish motives, but an incredibly warped and misguided idea of what it means to "help people". They scooped everyone into a single proverbial bucket as "needing to say a prayer to accept Jesus" and didn't generally interface with people as real, multifaceted humans who might have more complex needs. They thought the way to help the most people was to industrialize and streamline everything.

DataWorker 7y ago

Is the joy of giving an ulterior motive in your mind? Most evangelicals don’t care as much about converting others as they do about feeling pious and close to God themselves, at least that’s been my experience. Rather than convert it seems like many want to hoard piety and Hoover up all the holiness for themselves. I think it’s all about absolution for our sins.

_bxg1 7y ago
[copied from a comment I left elsewhere] Let me clarify: there were many genuinely compassionate people there. When I say "ulterior motives" I don't mean (necessarily) selfish motives, but an incredibly warped and misguided idea of what it means to "help people". They scooped everyone into a single proverbial bucket as "needing to say a prayer to accept Jesus" and didn't generally interface with people as real, multifaceted humans who might have more complex needs. They thought the way to help the most people was to industrialize and streamline everything.

dreamcompiler 7y ago

I grew up around Christianity in the American south and this is very true. The genius of Christianity is that it's a mind virus: In order to be a good Christian you have to convert others to Christianity. It's the GPL of religions.

_bxg1 7y ago
While the virus analogy feels heavy-handed to me... the GPL one is actually incredibly on-point. I'll have to remember that one.
joshuarubin 7y ago
I’m a “modern orthodox” Jew. We don’t proselytize (since there’s no downside to _not_ being Jewish in our view). Rather we focus on in-reach and retention. Anyway, this comment made me laugh and now I’m trying to figure out what license applies to us. It’s got to be some sort of walled garden, the lock-in is real.
- dreamcompiler 7y ago
  I've never had a Jewish person try to convert me, regardless of their orthodoxy. And frankly I've always found the "we must argue with God" doctrine much more palatable than the blind faith of Christianity.
mattigames 7y ago
The Islam and a few other religions realized a similar path: Good muslims have as many kids as they can, you don't need to convert many people if you can just indoctrinate them the easiest way possible: When you are their parent therefor take your words as absolute truths.
- skissane 7y ago
  The success of "indoctrination" is highly variable. There are heaps of people out there who have rejected the religion of their parents. I remember when I was a teenager and I started doubting my mother's Catholicism. I started reading philosophy books and trying to have arguments with her about the existence of God. She was totally unable to engage, she had zero interest in rational arguments for and against religion, she never approached religion with a critical eye, to her it was just "I believed what I was told, why won't you?". Not an approach likely to win over a sceptical teenager.

sparrish 7y ago

And why wouldn't they try to convert them? If they truly believe that the people they're helping physically are doomed to an eternity in hell and that they have information about the only way to avoid that (through Jesus Christ) - it would be incredibly selfish to not share that information. My point is their actions are completely in-line with their beliefs. It's irrational for them to act otherwise.

_bxg1 7y ago
And this is the same argument that has been recited to me more times than I can count, and which my father still recites to me periodically. > And why wouldn't they try to convert them? Because, one would hope, they have the emotional intelligence to see and accept the clear and present outlier in their oversimplified idea of human nature who's sitting right in front of them. And to - even if it doesn't result in a real change to their belief system - at least be able to set everything aside for a moment and be present with the real person in front of them.
mattigames 7y ago
Is irrational for them to have those believes in the first place, but that didn't stop them from believing them, so...
RobertRoberts 7y ago
Maybe my bible searching isn't work, do you know of a scripture that says Christians should convert people?
- sparrish 7y ago
  He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.” - Mark 16:15 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. - Matthew 28:19-20 Give praise to the Lord, proclaim his name; make known among the nations what he has done. - Psalm 105:1 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: “I have made you a light for the Gentiles,that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.” - Acts 13:47 Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. - 1 Peter 3:15 There's plenty more than these if you need them. Sharing the good news of what God has done has historically been one of the greatest goals of Jesus followers.

tryitnow 7y ago

I think that's a very specific brand of Christianity. Mainline Protestant groups and most Catholics don't really emphasize conversions. I see relatively little harm in mainstream Protestant churches and the more liberal Catholic parishes. Evangelical and conservative Catholic churches start to creep me out, even if people do get some value from them. In my view, if you get value from having a Christian faith practice, it would be best to quit more evangelical and dogmatic churches and start attending more open-minded, less conversion-oriented churches, e.g. Episcopalian, Methodist, Metropolitan, etc.