6 ms·

I recall not so long ago the freest country in Africa (and the whole World) by Mises Institute standarts was Somalia? http://mises.org/daily/2066 http://mises.

by borism 16y ago

I recall not so long ago the freest country in Africa (and the whole World) by Mises Institute standarts was Somalia? http://mises.org/daily/2066 http://mises.org/daily/2066 http://blog.mises.org/7128/the-rule-of-law-without-the-state/ http://blog.mises.org/7128/the-rule-of-law-without-the-state... BTW, I love Mauritius!

brc 16y ago
Well, without a functioning central government, that probably was very true. With anything like this, you have to balance it with other indicators like life expectancy and quality of life indexes to get an overall picture of what it is like to live in the country.
- notahacker 16y ago
  Instead of a functioning government you got traditional clan law, militia demanding protection money and offering nothing in return, and your route to the "free market" was greased by paying armed men collecting rents at checkpoints. . Of course, judging freedom using the Mises Institute benchmark of government spending being 0% of GDP left Somalia a surefire winner, but I'll happily trade some of that essential liberty for the second best of Western liberal democracy.
  - nika 16y ago
    I do not understand why it is popular to characterize somalia in this way. Have you got a reference to militias demanding money and offering nothing in return? It seems this would be a very dangerous thing to attempt in somalia, as the members of most tribes are pretty well armed and would not put up with this. Somalia is a tribal country with institutions that provide legal and judicial support for resolving disputes peacefully going back centuries. I'm sure they do have private roads, for which you have to pay a toll, but you have toll roads in many countries. I read one report that the pirates who were operating off of the somali coast operated like startups. One guy would put up some guns, others would put up labor, another the boat, some would stay ashore and provide financing or support. The profits would be divided among them according to their shares. The system works because the desire to go out again keeps them honest. The "pirates" effectively operate as the somali coast guard, going after ships that are in their states waters. These pirates were previously fisherman until china decided that they could start overfishing the area. So they go and collect tolls. I guess it is romantic to call them pirates, and it certainly serves the interests of the west to characterize somalia as a hellhole. But the primary problem facing somalia is not that they don't have a functioning society-- they do-- but that the western interests, specifically the US and the UK, keep making war on them. The UN created schools but the teachers are unmotivated, and so the somalis, who are generally relatively wealthy, set up private schools of their own. I have a friend who has been there and who worked on a proposal to put in a port and a road across some of the territory into ethiopia. However, the investors were scared off when an american general promised to "bomb the hell out of it" if they built the road and the port. So, my knowledge of the situation on the ground is dated a few years and mostly relevant to the north. But Somalia is actually a relatively safe, stable society, it exhibits a fair bit of success in free market principles and in operating without a state. They are able to provide security, and repel invasions for the most part, without a central government.
    - astrodust 16y ago
      I think what you're saying is for a country suffering under an oppressive level of religion, virtual civil war and a perpetual inter-clan power struggle, they're not doing too badly for themselves. Your assertion that Somalians are generally relatively wealthy does seem a huge stretch for a country with such a large population living in abject poverty.
      - nika 16y ago
        There is no civil war and no perpetual inter-clan power struggle. What defines and "oppressive" level of religion is in the eye of the beholder. It is unfortunate that ideology causes americans to believe propaganda over the reports of people who have been to somalia and somalis themselves.
        shadowfox 16y ago
        Can you provide some references to these reports?
        borism 16y ago
        there's no civil war!? wtf are you smoking?
        nika 16y ago
        The truth. It's the anti-drug. Oh, I see now. In western propaganda the ethiopian invaders you armed and sent to take over our country are really somehow "Somalis" and your illegal and immoral invasion is somehow our civil war? Yeah, someone is smoking something!
    - DennisP 16y ago
      Not only that but somebody's been dumping nuclear waste and other toxins near their coastline. Since they don't have a government with a coast guard, I don't know how else they're supposed to handle the situation.
- nika 16y ago
  Ok, which indicators would you like to look at? Peter Leeson, from the Dept of Economics at West Virginia University did some research and published a paper. Here's a link: http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_off_Stateless.pdf http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_off_Stateless.pdf This paper compares several indicators between the current situation and the time when they had a government. Live expectancy is up. Physicians per 100,000 is up. Infant mortality is down dramatically, and the percentage with low birth weight is down dramatically. Sanitation, access to health facilities are both improved. Extreme poverty has declined. Radio ownership is up dramatically, as is Telephones and Television. Adult Literacy and School enrollment are both down, but given the rise in private schools I suspect this might be due to the way the data is collected. The same thing can be said about all the other statistics, as they always should bear some analysis. But I don't think it is the slam dunk that it is popularly assumed. From the paper: "The data depict a country with severe problems, but one which is clearly doing better under statelessness than it was under government. Of the 18 development indicators, 14 show unambiguous improvement under anarchy. Life expectancy is higher today than was in the last years of government’s existence; infant mortality has improved 24 percent; maternal mortality has fallen over 30 percent; infants with low birth weight has fallen more than 15 percentage points; access to health facilities has increased more than 25 percentage points; access to sanitation has risen eight percentage points; extreme poverty has plummeted nearly 20 percentage points; one year olds fully immunized for TB has grown nearly 20 percentage points, and for measles has increased ten; fatalities due to measles have dropped 30 percent; and the prevalence of TVs, radios, and telephones has jumped between 3 and 25 times." and: "Importantly, the indicators in Table 1 also do not measure the substantial increase in personal freedoms and civil liberties enjoyed by Somalis since the emergence of anarchy. The Somali government ruthlessly suppressed free speech, censoring newspapers, radio and television. Most forms of free expression were punishable by death and foreign travel was severely restricted. Today, in contrast, Somalis are free to travel as they please (restricted only by governments of other nations) and enjoy greater freedom of expression, both privately and publicly. 20 private newspapers, 12 radio and television stations, and several Internet sites now provide information to the Somali public (Freedom House 2005). Satellite-based televisions enable the transmission of international news services, including CNN (Little 2003: 170-171). Authorities in Somaliland and Puntland have attempted to interfere with media providers in their territories, but freedom of expression remains improved compared to its status under government. This constitutes an additional important, though unmeasured, increase in Somali welfare under anarchy." On the education issue: "Only two of the 18 development indicators in Table 1 show a clear welfare decline under stateless: adult literacy and combined gross school enrollment. Given that foreign aid was completely financing education in Somalia pre-1991, it is not surprising that there has been some fall in school enrollment and literacy. This is less a statement about the Somali government’s ability to generate welfare enhancing outcomes for its citizens than it is a reflection of foreign aid poured into Somali education by the international development community before government collapsed.9"
msy 16y ago
The Mises Institute is a bunch of far-right libertarian nutjobs, I'm not surprised a war-riven failed state is their idea of paradise yet funnily enough they're not rushing to move there. If you're looking for objective rankings of economic freedom you'd be distinctly better served on the right by the Heritige Foundation http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking or Reporters Without Borders's Press Freedom reports leaning slightly left.

by borism 16y ago

brc 16y ago

Well, without a functioning central government, that probably was very true. With anything like this, you have to balance it with other indicators like life expectancy and quality of life indexes to get an overall picture of what it is like to live in the country.

notahacker 16y ago
Instead of a functioning government you got traditional clan law, militia demanding protection money and offering nothing in return, and your route to the "free market" was greased by paying armed men collecting rents at checkpoints. . Of course, judging freedom using the Mises Institute benchmark of government spending being 0% of GDP left Somalia a surefire winner, but I'll happily trade some of that essential liberty for the second best of Western liberal democracy.
- nika 16y ago
  I do not understand why it is popular to characterize somalia in this way. Have you got a reference to militias demanding money and offering nothing in return? It seems this would be a very dangerous thing to attempt in somalia, as the members of most tribes are pretty well armed and would not put up with this. Somalia is a tribal country with institutions that provide legal and judicial support for resolving disputes peacefully going back centuries. I'm sure they do have private roads, for which you have to pay a toll, but you have toll roads in many countries. I read one report that the pirates who were operating off of the somali coast operated like startups. One guy would put up some guns, others would put up labor, another the boat, some would stay ashore and provide financing or support. The profits would be divided among them according to their shares. The system works because the desire to go out again keeps them honest. The "pirates" effectively operate as the somali coast guard, going after ships that are in their states waters. These pirates were previously fisherman until china decided that they could start overfishing the area. So they go and collect tolls. I guess it is romantic to call them pirates, and it certainly serves the interests of the west to characterize somalia as a hellhole. But the primary problem facing somalia is not that they don't have a functioning society-- they do-- but that the western interests, specifically the US and the UK, keep making war on them. The UN created schools but the teachers are unmotivated, and so the somalis, who are generally relatively wealthy, set up private schools of their own. I have a friend who has been there and who worked on a proposal to put in a port and a road across some of the territory into ethiopia. However, the investors were scared off when an american general promised to "bomb the hell out of it" if they built the road and the port. So, my knowledge of the situation on the ground is dated a few years and mostly relevant to the north. But Somalia is actually a relatively safe, stable society, it exhibits a fair bit of success in free market principles and in operating without a state. They are able to provide security, and repel invasions for the most part, without a central government.
  - astrodust 16y ago
    I think what you're saying is for a country suffering under an oppressive level of religion, virtual civil war and a perpetual inter-clan power struggle, they're not doing too badly for themselves. Your assertion that Somalians are generally relatively wealthy does seem a huge stretch for a country with such a large population living in abject poverty.
    - nika 16y ago
      There is no civil war and no perpetual inter-clan power struggle. What defines and "oppressive" level of religion is in the eye of the beholder. It is unfortunate that ideology causes americans to believe propaganda over the reports of people who have been to somalia and somalis themselves.
      - shadowfox 16y ago
        Can you provide some references to these reports?
      - borism 16y ago
        there's no civil war!? wtf are you smoking?
        nika 16y ago
        The truth. It's the anti-drug. Oh, I see now. In western propaganda the ethiopian invaders you armed and sent to take over our country are really somehow "Somalis" and your illegal and immoral invasion is somehow our civil war? Yeah, someone is smoking something!
  - DennisP 16y ago
    Not only that but somebody's been dumping nuclear waste and other toxins near their coastline. Since they don't have a government with a coast guard, I don't know how else they're supposed to handle the situation.
nika 16y ago
Ok, which indicators would you like to look at? Peter Leeson, from the Dept of Economics at West Virginia University did some research and published a paper. Here's a link: http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_off_Stateless.pdf http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_off_Stateless.pdf This paper compares several indicators between the current situation and the time when they had a government. Live expectancy is up. Physicians per 100,000 is up. Infant mortality is down dramatically, and the percentage with low birth weight is down dramatically. Sanitation, access to health facilities are both improved. Extreme poverty has declined. Radio ownership is up dramatically, as is Telephones and Television. Adult Literacy and School enrollment are both down, but given the rise in private schools I suspect this might be due to the way the data is collected. The same thing can be said about all the other statistics, as they always should bear some analysis. But I don't think it is the slam dunk that it is popularly assumed. From the paper: "The data depict a country with severe problems, but one which is clearly doing better under statelessness than it was under government. Of the 18 development indicators, 14 show unambiguous improvement under anarchy. Life expectancy is higher today than was in the last years of government’s existence; infant mortality has improved 24 percent; maternal mortality has fallen over 30 percent; infants with low birth weight has fallen more than 15 percentage points; access to health facilities has increased more than 25 percentage points; access to sanitation has risen eight percentage points; extreme poverty has plummeted nearly 20 percentage points; one year olds fully immunized for TB has grown nearly 20 percentage points, and for measles has increased ten; fatalities due to measles have dropped 30 percent; and the prevalence of TVs, radios, and telephones has jumped between 3 and 25 times." and: "Importantly, the indicators in Table 1 also do not measure the substantial increase in personal freedoms and civil liberties enjoyed by Somalis since the emergence of anarchy. The Somali government ruthlessly suppressed free speech, censoring newspapers, radio and television. Most forms of free expression were punishable by death and foreign travel was severely restricted. Today, in contrast, Somalis are free to travel as they please (restricted only by governments of other nations) and enjoy greater freedom of expression, both privately and publicly. 20 private newspapers, 12 radio and television stations, and several Internet sites now provide information to the Somali public (Freedom House 2005). Satellite-based televisions enable the transmission of international news services, including CNN (Little 2003: 170-171). Authorities in Somaliland and Puntland have attempted to interfere with media providers in their territories, but freedom of expression remains improved compared to its status under government. This constitutes an additional important, though unmeasured, increase in Somali welfare under anarchy." On the education issue: "Only two of the 18 development indicators in Table 1 show a clear welfare decline under stateless: adult literacy and combined gross school enrollment. Given that foreign aid was completely financing education in Somalia pre-1991, it is not surprising that there has been some fall in school enrollment and literacy. This is less a statement about the Somali government’s ability to generate welfare enhancing outcomes for its citizens than it is a reflection of foreign aid poured into Somali education by the international development community before government collapsed.9"

msy 16y ago

The Mises Institute is a bunch of far-right libertarian nutjobs, I'm not surprised a war-riven failed state is their idea of paradise yet funnily enough they're not rushing to move there. If you're looking for objective rankings of economic freedom you'd be distinctly better served on the right by the Heritige Foundation http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking or Reporters Without Borders's Press Freedom reports leaning slightly left.