11 ms·

This is an discussion I've had plenty of times with my wife (who is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist). It's hard to articulate in words, but I will try.

This is an discussion I've had plenty of times with my wife (who is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist). It's hard to articulate in words, but I will try. What gets me about astrologists and psychics, is they are preying on peoples innocent stupidity. At best they are reading their clients semi-accurately, at worst they are swindling them. But in both cases they are not actually helping the client understand what is making them feel this way, and helping down on a path that leads to a healthier self-awareness. We have a friend who doesn't not believe in psychology, but believes in psychics. She refuses to go back to a psychologist because the psychologist wanted her to actually think on and feel her past traumas, to discover why she has some self destructive tendencies. The psychic she eventually went with and still uses today (costing just as much as the psychologist -- more if you have mental health coverage on your insurance) just told her she sees why she is doing certain things, and to call her if she felt these tendencies coming back (charging her of course). My wife thinks that so long as it is helping, it isn't necessarily bad. She feels that people shouldn't see psychics or read too much into the movement of planets and stars, but that whats the harm if it makes you feel better. I feel that the amount of good they could do is way less than the harm they could do. And that the dangers of allowing another person to give you untrained/regulated advise is a terrible path to go down instead of understanding yourself.

Iv 7y ago
If you assume only balanced and benevolent people will do astrology and psychic readings, that's fine. The problem is that if you have a little bit of problem yourself, a bit of delusion, it is easy to bring down the gullible that come to you. People die of preventable disease because they listen to their psychics. An astrologist with a bunch of fervent followers can make a transition into a cult the day he or she wants to make serious money.
- jiveturkey 7y ago
  +1 it's like saying gambling (or alcohol, or other vice) is just fine. most vices are fine in moderation. the problem is that some people can't moderate, and for those people the harm is quite bad. the purveyors of such vices are absolutely knowingly taking advantage of these people will low self control. most prominently (but perhaps least acknowledged) in today's attention economy.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- blanche_ 7y ago
  I hear what's your saying, but should be that their right? Right to f!#(& up their lives, because they decided it that way.
  - Iv 7y ago
    Choices are only choices if they are enlightened. It assumes there is no manipulation on the other end, which in the current case is false.
  - xenophonf 7y ago
    Psychics don't have the right to defraud other people.
giomasce 7y ago
I tend to agree with you. But the problem exposed here is relevant; Morpheus says (speaking about a fortune teller, probably not coincidentally, that there is big difference between knowing our own path and following it: here there is kind of the same problem. A trained professional is probably more qualified to understand and respond to their patients' problems, but this works only if the patients acknowledge and accept their advices. If they do not, however good, they are lost. I believe this is an important problem in medicine (not only psychology): there is a good difference between knowing the solution for something, and convincing the patient to abide to that solution. Each of us has their own set of beliefs about where working solutions come from: professionals, the internet, fortune tellers, friends, self help books. If professionals do not have enough strength in this set, they will not work. I am not saying that fortune tellers are the solution; I am just saying that this problem exists and that the fact that people believe in medicine professionals cannot be taken for granted.
- NikolaNovak 7y ago
  >>" there is a good difference between knowing the solution for something, and convincing the patient to abide to that solution." This is an absolutely key observation in many facets in life, and I still struggle with it. Whether presenting an IT solution to client; or something more mundane in real life, knowing or arriving at the "right answer" (let's leave that definition / certainty on aside for moment;) is only part of the battle - and not even necessarily the hardest one, requiring most of one's empathy/cleverness/skills. Making it happen, likely by convincing/persuading all the parties, is frequently the more difficult, and certainly for me the more frustrating, part of the process. As a (historically) technical geek, I've (historically) been of the narrow minded "Here's the right, demonstrated, supported, proven answer; why are you not following it? I don't understand what's happening..." outlook. I'm getting a bit better in my old age... :->
- pjc50 7y ago
  > I believe this is an important problem in medicine (not only psychology): there is a good difference between knowing the solution for something, and convincing the patient to abide to that solution. The mirror image of this: the patient convincing the doctor that the problem is real and should be taken seriously. This is an absolutely huge problem for all sorts of chronic discomforts and minor mental health issues, or problems experienced by women. Alternative medicine will always listen to you and take you seriously (so long as you pay them). That can be more helpful than being told there's nothing wrong with you or that you're faking it for attention. Even if the actual treatment is nonsense, the "consultation" is "real".
anewguy9000 7y ago
i feel the same way about therapists too..
- jermaustin1 7y ago
  Licensed therapists have to conform to a recognized standard in ethics and methods around psychotherapy. There are then different types of specialties/theories that build atop that base framework. Psychology (like medicine and computer-science) is an ever evolving science. Just 50 years ago, we would try to shock the depression out of you - and it worked for a short period of time. We haven't reached the final say in how the mind works, or who we are, and we probably never will, but every year we get closer.
  - jalk 7y ago
    Electroconvulsive therapy is still in use on patients that do not react to other treatments. Patients are anesthetized and the doses have been lowered today though. https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/electroconvulsive-therapy/about/pac-20393894 https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/electroconvulsiv...
    - jermaustin1 7y ago
      It's always be a very effective method for some mental health issues. It's just dangerous (it affects more than what you are targeting), and should always be a last resort (which it is now). In the past it was the first or second answer to a LOT of illnesses from the made up (hysteria - read: horny wife and inexplicable weight gain) to the legitimate (depression, hyperactivity, bipolar disorders).
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
pi-squared 7y ago
The harm is - this things spread. One person going to a psychic in an isolated case that doesn't matter. When that person can communicate with other people - it's a problem. One person believing in woo-woo make other people believe in woo-woo which eventually spirals down to people believing in all sort of things that are not scientific, makind science equal or less than psycho-stuff, making people doubt things since they can't tell scientific claim from astrolloger's claim, making people believe in Trump's fake news lala, global warming is a myth and all sort of bullshit because they cannot differentiate between "magic" and reality. So yes - harm done to the planet.
scoutt 7y ago
> but that whats the harm if it makes you feel better. Compulsive shopping: works for some. It's not the final solution, but it may make you feel better. And some will profit from it. The same applies to astrology.
- jermaustin1 7y ago
  My wife was applying to be a licensed clinician in a remote town back in March (Alamosa, Colorado). One of the interview questions was, "What is a self-care ritual you currently have that would be made more difficult by moving here?" Its slightly morphed version of a common interview question in mental health around self-care. Her answer was simple, and had an immediate echo from the other clinicians. "Target" If you don't know Alamosa, Colorado, it is a decent sized town that is about 2.5 hours from civilization. It has a new Walmart Super Center and a Tractor Supply, but that is about it until you get to pueblo for a Target (2.5 hours away), or Colorado Springs (3.5 hours away). All of the clinicians said their favorite part of the yearly meeting in Denver was going to Target.
- mlang23 7y ago
  The same applies to heroin as well. Deception is deception, no matter how you twist and turn it.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    No, the same doesn't apply, as heroin will also cause harm to your body, whereas the other examples (shop therapy for example) don't necessarily cause harm. Not to mention heroin being illegal... You need a better example to refute the parent's example
Zenst 7y ago
Gets down too a case of people want to talk and have somebody listen and tell them the obvious that the person talking is so emotionally blind to see that themselves and even when those close to them have already told them that. Case of people need somebody removed from all emotional attachment and to lay it out to them (talk) so that they can point it out over a friend who already knows all the talk just giving the answer to them when their mind is less receptive. Now to translate that into something comparable to the HN community: We have rubber ducks ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging ), whilst they don't talk back, they force you to focus and in a way that lets you cut thru the fog and mist and listen to yourself. With that, people really do talk to their plants and pets and better of for it. But whatever process allows you to cut thru the brain fog of whatever form, run with that. However, I do not recommend pulling out a plastic duck upon public transport and talking to it, as society is just not advanced enough to handle. But we all have a dream. [EDIT - ADD reference URL]
- lonelappde 7y ago
  Rubber ducks don't charge $50+/hr though. They aren't quacks!
GistNoesis 7y ago
I tend to agree with your wife. Whatever works! It's probably more dependent of the competence of the psychologist vs the competence of the psychic. The way I see it, is that's two sides of the same coin. The psychologist would be the "do no harm" side, the psychic would be "try to cure" side. The psychologist will assign you to a box. The psychic will let you float around. The psychologist is convinced he isn't a crook. The psychic is not convinced he is a crook. The thing is once any system is complex enough, it's quite hard to know what impact it may have. Many ways can be good, and some ways are definitely bad. Only when the two sides are balanced, is the path illuminated.
chooseaname 7y ago
I agree with you. My spouse and I foster. We see the effects of trauma day in and day out; both in the children and their bio parents. People cannot get the help they need from a psychic. The trauma has rewired their brains and they need to learn tools to cope with that. A psychic won't teach them any of those coping tools. A psychic is a cigarette to a drug addict. It's another addiction that takes the edge off.
- jermaustin1 7y ago
  Now a Therapist can also be that cigarette. The anxiety I used to feel when I or my therapist was going away and wouldn't see each other for a couple weeks to a month was harder to deal with than I thought it would be. But we worked through that. A therapist is a cigarette that tries to get you to quit. My wife says that her ultimate goal is to no longer be needed by a couple so she can move on to another.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    A good therapist. We also have therapists that exist to maximize billable hours, and build whole theories of practice around it, like 40hr/week ABA therapy.
    - aidenn0 7y ago
      There's also shitty therapists who don't know what they are doing and so shame their clients to hide their incompetence. As per Sturgeon's law[1] these therapists outnumber the good ones. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law
Allower 7y ago
The problem is a relative one. I could make the same argument about anyone and everyone, we very clearly have not achieved perfect knowledge, necessarily we are living a sub-optimal existence. Suggesting you know better is a slippery slope, I may think I know better than you, and for your own good you should only eat vegetables and other plant based foods. Even the things we believe to be true are often later to be proved false, we should not be over-confident in our understanding of the world and life. Live and let live, educate by all means, share your experiences and education, continue to support free inquiry and self-reliance, but we should not try to control other peoples behavior so directly.
ako 7y ago
As far as i'm aware, there's no proof in the world that suggests that astrology and religion are not completely interchangeable in this respect... Especially the part where "they are praying on peoples innocent stupidity". It's really frustrating how some people can go from completely rational on something like astrology, to completely irrational when it comes to religion, when they are basically the same thing.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >As far as i'm aware, there's no proof in the world that suggests that astrology and religion are not completely interchangeable in this respect... Especially the part where "they are praying on peoples innocent stupidity". Well, religion has been studied for evolutionary advantages. And of course religion has shaped and sustained whole civilizations, arts, philosophy, etc, in ways which astrology did not, and in many ways that people still identify as beneficial.
  - ako 7y ago
    Yes, it has evolutionary advantages, just like placebos have advantages. Again, not so different from astrology. Depends on how gullible the believer is. And how much force the religious institutions use to enforce the correct behavior of the supposed believers (and now for something completely different... ;-).
    - ulisesrmzroche 7y ago
      A placebo works whether you like it or not that’s the beauty about placebos
    - coldtea 7y ago
      >Yes, it has evolutionary advantages, just like placebos have advantages The simile being that the various reglious Gods are also not real? That's irrelevant, because religion, as a human practice, and the actions, practices, decisions taken based on them are actually existing and actually modifying the world. So that would be more like a placebo that made you do X (e.g. go on a diet) and you see effects from that. In that case, it's not a placebo anymore.
rolltiide 7y ago
I got into astrology to hit on women. Not so different than men returning to churches to expand their dating pool even if they have to put up with illogical customs, a religious spouse and subject their future children to the same cycle. I found very many parallels to religion but without the consequences. With astrology, disagreement doesnt mean “burn the infidels for all eternity” it just means “please dont make fun of me too hard”, which is kind of refreshing for an organized religion So as a surrogate for religion and concentrated population of women that aren't encumbered by judgment, its basically perfect - I think this goes hand in hand with your observation, there is no reflection on your own decisions. There is no hell, just celestial external control of all your decisions based on what time you were born and having a modicum of foresight into what to expect. People are so used to being dismissed - specifically women ridiculed by men in a kneejerk reaction - that simply not doing that is an in and the conversation quickly takes other non-astrology directions This discussion seems to be about actually practicing it and assuming any merit of predictive abilities, all I will add is that I can see how the incentives are misaligned to admitting the issues with it I’m just here for the ditzy lean spiritual chicks, if that’s what you really want play along instead of immediately torpedoing your eligibility
slothtrop 7y ago
> My wife thinks that so long as it is helping, it isn't necessarily bad. The black and white categorization serves to justify it's continued use, add to the fact, "feeling better" isn't a result of tackling deep-rooted issues in this instance but getting a fix. You can "feel better" after eating ice cream but your problems are still there. Taking a hit of pleasantries and affirmations might as well be free. She doesn't appreciate the fact that a therapist could be far better for real change.
- icebraining 7y ago
  I think the issue is that not seeing a psychic doesn't mean one will see a therapist.
izzydata 7y ago
I feel the same way about religion in general. It doesn't seem any different. I find that it causes way more harm to society and peoples minds than any good it does. Religious upbringing or being indoctrinated into not thinking for yourself as a child is probably a likely reason people turn to things such as psychics.
- ARandomerDude 7y ago
  > Religious upbringing or being indoctrinated into not thinking for yourself This is a pretty strange claim to me. I definitely agree there are some religious strands that are anti-intellectual. But then there are Augustine, Ambrose, Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, Francis Turretin, John Owen, etc., whose works most people are simply incapable of grasping, and fewer still can equal. Many of us are trained with these intellectual giants to show us not what, but how, to think. Are you aware of these great thinkers and their contributions to your thought life? To pick a random example among many, our concept of personhood relies heavily on a theologian named Turtullian, before whom person (Latin, "persona") merely meant an actor's mask (i.e, the role one plays). Tertullian explored the enduring "substance" of a person, regardless of what role they play in life -- concepts we now assume as a given, but were hotly contested at the time.
  - LessDmesg 7y ago
    Religion is just paleolithic thinking, a primitive mental and emotional representation of authority. The chieftain of the tribe, and later the state, is the mediating and ordering force in human society. But since a chieftain or a king is just a man, the simplest way to justify his superior position is to imagine supernatural beings above him... The fact that some smart people lived at a time when science and technology weren't well developed, and hence fell for this mental trap, doesn't mean that we should resort to caveman thinking now.
  - izzydata 7y ago
    People are still intelligent creatures after all. It doesn't surprise me that eventually over hundreds or thousands of years people managed to have some critical thoughts.
onorton 7y ago
"praying on" You could mean "preying" but I've realised that either could work. Is there a term for a malapropism that still makes sense?
- jermaustin1 7y ago
  Thanks and fixed. But like you said, it could work either way.
- Spare_account 7y ago
  I believe the term is 'eggcorn' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggcorn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggcorn
bernierocks 7y ago
Even worse are the mediums because they are creating a false memory of a loved one.
coldtea 7y ago
>What gets me about astrologists and psychics, is they are praying on peoples innocent stupidity. At best they are reading their clients semi-accurately, at worst they are swindling them. So like any other business these days, and considerably better than Facebook? >I feel that the amount of good they could do is way less than the harm they could do. And that the dangers of allowing another person to give you untrained/regulated advise is a terrible path to go down instead of understanding yourself. It's not like we have these things (personal life advice, mental health, etc), sorted out, and some "expert" can come and give solid advice because they studied the subject at university. If anything experts in those fields are as much quacks as the astrologists, but with extra state power to boot. Some of the worst advice has been given by doctors and specialists -- all the way to forced lobotomies and electric shock treatment. If anything, the regular psycic (not a full on con-man) would be more careful with their advice/interventions, because they don't want to rock the boat too much, and knowing their trick, they don't have a "god complex" like many experts develop. Heck, those "experts" are on the top of professionals committing suicide themselves, and on the top of professionals with mental issues: "A high suicide rate among psychiatrists (58 to 65/100,000 compared with that of the general population, 11/100,000) has been reported by the following: Freeman, Blachly et al, DeSole et al, and Pond"
- DanBC 7y ago
  > "A high suicide rate among psychiatrists What is vicarious trauma, and why might it relate to psychiatrists?
  - coldtea 7y ago
    Did you think I was suggesting that such experts were somehow more prone to such issues regardless of their profession (e.g. by their nurture or DNA)? My whole point is that people with vicarious trauma shouldn't be guiding others on how to deal with traumas or stressful situations, and as if they we have this "trauma" thing sorted out and their trained pros that know how to overcome it...
SilasX 7y ago
I’m surprised. Half the time I hear “fake it till you make it, it doesn’t matter that you have doubts, you just have to be confident, and that will inspire others and clear the necessary roadblocks”. But psychics are like, the manifestation of that mentality in its purest form, and it feels like doublespeak to turn around and say, “hey, that’s not 100% rigorous, don’t sell naive randos on it!”
- jermaustin1 7y ago
  Because mental health is medicine too. "Fake it til you make it" where you will cause minimal harm to others. If I sell myself as the best Asp.Net developer in the world, and get hired to build a DotNetNuke eCommerce Site. Will my client kill themselves because I accidentally broke their website? Likely not. A psychic could lead a person down a terrible path pretty easily, though. A psychologist is trained, required, and regularly retested on their ability to spot potential troubling behaviors and report them.
- cies 7y ago
  Maybe "fake it till you make it" is substantially different from "fake it till someone else hopefully makes it". Let's say you are already behaving a little like the software developer you aspire to be. In case you hit a wall you put in evening time to read up, try harder, in order to keep up your appearance. This is what I mean by "fake it till you make it". In case you are an astrologer or psychic, you pretend to know what's going on with your "patient", you pretend that you can help them with issues. If this is not working out you cannot (as I understand it) put in more of your time to get on top of things. This is the difference I think.
wolco 7y ago
I understand your point but only putting trust in regulated/trained professionals sounds like a really simple answer. Friends are untrained but can provide great advice because they understand the person and can see repeated patterns. Believing in the power of planet movements can affect our lives is a religion not a science. Would you tell that person not to believe in God because based on science we can't prove they exist? Do you consider that harmful because they are basically the same thing?
- pavel_lishin 7y ago
  > Friends are untrained but can provide great advice because they understand the person and can see repeated patterns. But your friends see you often; an astrologer sees you when you call her up and pay up. And they only see what you tell them; your friends get to observe you and see those patterns. > Would you tell that person not to believe in God because based on science we can't prove they exist? Do you consider that harmful because they are basically the same thing? If you're having serious emotional issues, and your priest's solution is to tell you to pray harder, then yeah, I'd tell them to consider that maybe their religion isn't helping and maybe actively harming.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    My friends tell me to stop seeing my astrologer. My astrogoler tells me to stop seeing my friends. It's a hard problem.
- jermaustin1 7y ago
  As my wife's therapist has on her cards, "You can talk to me when you can't talk to your friends." Friends are great to talk to, but they are only as good at helping as we are at being completely open with them. There are things I'd tell my therapist LONG before I'd tell any friend. As for religion, I believe it is a mixed bag. It can be used for good and evil. But most people are religious for the community more than the religion. When I used to go to church regularly, I went to see people, talk to people, feel loved by strangers. Know that if something bad happened, people in my community would help. Do I believe in God, a god, or gods? Probably? Maybe? No? Yes? I dont know, and day to day that changes. Day to day, passing kindness to neighbors and strangers doesn't change.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
> My wife thinks that so long as it is helping, it isn't necessarily bad. She feels that people shouldn't see psychics or read too much into the movement of planets and stars, but that whats the harm if it makes you feel better. I don't know your wife of course, but I feel that this might be a mischaracterization of the sentiment. Sometimes people's model of reality is incompatible with yours, and since communication requires shared context it is difficult to convey your true meaning in a way that can be readily understood. One solution to this is to build up all the context that person needs to understand what you're saying, but this is slow and because it may require them to destroy and rebuild their fundamental understanding of the world it can cause quite a lot of suffering. An alternative is to reframe what you're saying into terms that are compatible with their current model. Even though the understanding you convey may be less accurate, it is often good enough.
- NorthOf33rd 7y ago
  This is a wonderfully succinct way of expressing to my significant other what I've been trying to get across for years. I'm considering printing this out, laminating it, and presenting it to her. We aren't the same race or gender, and while I try incredibly hard to understand her experience, it's slow going, difficult, and emotional. Truthfully, it would do everyone well to have such a card.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- superflit 7y ago
  I think this is one of the best comments in communications. Struggling to make my point through similar scenarios your explanation hit me. Do you have more resources so I can improve?
- kryogen1c 7y ago
  > communication requires shared context this is pretty grandiose. its beautiful, but if youre trying to help people communicate, "adjust your models of reality" isnt actionable advice. the core problem you allude to is that communication is built on unexamined assumptions, but this does not require a cosmic realignment to get better at solving. a perfect example of this is trying to make your partner feel loved. if you tell your partner you love them but that doesnt make them feel loved, you are miscommunicating. i am regurgitating the words of "The 5 Love Languages", by Gary Chapman. it is a short, cheap, book that will change your life and upend your cosmos : ) https://www.amazon.com/Love-Languages-Secret-that-Lasts-ebook/dp/B00OICLVBI/ https://www.amazon.com/Love-Languages-Secret-that-Lasts-eboo... no affiliation, except that i bought and read it and it made me a better person.
BurningFrog 7y ago
> My wife thinks that so long as it is helping, it isn't necessarily bad. I'd say that's absolutely the scientific, empirical approach! Sounds like these psychics serve as a low key religion for these people. As a pretty hardline atheists, I have over the years had to admit that religion really works at giving many people hope and sanity. We may even, as humans, be hardwired to require religion in our lives. I sometimes miss that I can't have that in my life, because I can see reality as it is...
- tstrimple 7y ago
  The placebo effect is amazing. It even works if you know it's a placebo! That's why I still take a ton of vitamin C when I feel a cold coming on and it seems to prevent it most of the time. While I haven't tried it, I'm sure something like prayer could have beneficial effects in Atheists as well for that reason.
  - santoriv 7y ago
    Sure, as long as you don't confusing praying with being proactive.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - Endy 7y ago
      Rubber-ducking can be proactive though. And does it really differ if you're talking out your program to a rubber duck or if you're talking out your other challenges to something "else"? I would say they're pretty well matched.
  - wool_gather 7y ago
    Absolutely; witness the number of people who don't participate in organized religion but have some kind of ad-hoc personal practice. Or, better, notice how many people (I'm one) continue to entertain small superstitions or borderline-magical habits even while, if asked, they'll say they know they're ridiculous.
loceng 7y ago
I haven't thought about this before - however someone having someone - anyone - they trust and feel comfortable talking to when they feel the need is better than having no one, no?
ping_pong 7y ago
I think it can really come down to: Some people want to take the red pill, and some people want to take the blue pill. Why should it matter to you what pill they decide to take? Most of this world lives in some sort of lie or deceit anyway, similar to those in the Matrix. Your privilege is having a choice because you see above it. Many people don't have that privilege and can't function at that level. I have more than a few friends that can't see past their own emotional trauma and they are now approaching their 40s and some in their 50s. Does it matter if they see the world a different way than us, and in a way that makes them happier? As long as they are happy than the alternative, does it matter?
blanche_ 7y ago
Well I think fortunetelling was some primitive form of therapy. When I was in my teens I've got really into that stuff and it is actually written in tarot books, that the intent of the whole thing should be listening and helping people. There are few discourses in therapy and not all of them focus on facing past trauma, that doesn't mean they are bad because of that (CBT for example). You have a point with giving untrained/unregulated advice, but when I think about it something seems odd. Like when you ask your friends, close ones, they aren't therapist, their advice isn't regulated and even they may have bad intentions. Talking to other people about your problems at all, no matter who they are seems helpful.
Jd 7y ago
The problem with "psychics" is ultimately a more general problem about access to help, especially the field of psychological help. The help anyone could do is entirely dependent on the ability of the person to get access to the help. For example, suppose that person A has problem C. Person B has solution D. Now, even if solution D is the perfect solution, one must figure out the access path to that solution. In this case, the problem is how to create a process whereby person A is most likely to get to the appropriate solution. My guess is that for the most part people will prioritize a) trust in the solution provider b) ease of access and c) cost, not necessarily in that order. There probably is some bias towards an easy solution (e.g. take this pill) as opposed to a complex solution (e.g. get a B.S. in computer science). It could be that a phone psychic, simply by being immediately available and inexpensive, could provide a better throughput of low level psychological issues than the higher barrier to entry of the traditional psychiatric industry. The fact that someone self-describes as a "psychic" is in some ways just another form of marketing, one with a certain target demographic. Admittedly, this demographic might hypothetically be better served by a different set of solution providers (in the same ways that the demographic most keen on faith healers might be better served by licensed physicians), but it's not clear that they would go to them for all of the reasons mentioned above. All in all, this is one of these areas that is extremely difficult to judge, both because of the difficulty in evaluation solutions to psychological issues and all of the cost and marketing issues.
heavyset_go 7y ago
> I feel that the amount of good they could do is way less than the harm they could do. And that the dangers of allowing another person to give you untrained/regulated advise is a terrible path to go down instead of understanding yourself. I know a couple that is very involved in their church, and took it upon themselves to provide marriage counseling to members of the congregation. The couple has no background, training or certification for the "counseling" they provide. I feel exactly the same way about the couple in my anecdote as you do psychics.
isoskeles 7y ago
> And that the dangers of allowing another person to give you untrained/regulated advise is a terrible path to go down instead of understanding yourself. I’d allow for untrained/regulated advice from family or friends, although this is considering you know these people and trust that some of them will give decent advice.

Iv 7y ago

If you assume only balanced and benevolent people will do astrology and psychic readings, that's fine. The problem is that if you have a little bit of problem yourself, a bit of delusion, it is easy to bring down the gullible that come to you. People die of preventable disease because they listen to their psychics. An astrologist with a bunch of fervent followers can make a transition into a cult the day he or she wants to make serious money.

jiveturkey 7y ago
+1 it's like saying gambling (or alcohol, or other vice) is just fine. most vices are fine in moderation. the problem is that some people can't moderate, and for those people the harm is quite bad. the purveyors of such vices are absolutely knowingly taking advantage of these people will low self control. most prominently (but perhaps least acknowledged) in today's attention economy.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
blanche_ 7y ago
I hear what's your saying, but should be that their right? Right to f!#(& up their lives, because they decided it that way.
- Iv 7y ago
  Choices are only choices if they are enlightened. It assumes there is no manipulation on the other end, which in the current case is false.
- xenophonf 7y ago
  Psychics don't have the right to defraud other people.

giomasce 7y ago

I tend to agree with you. But the problem exposed here is relevant; Morpheus says (speaking about a fortune teller, probably not coincidentally, that there is big difference between knowing our own path and following it: here there is kind of the same problem. A trained professional is probably more qualified to understand and respond to their patients' problems, but this works only if the patients acknowledge and accept their advices. If they do not, however good, they are lost. I believe this is an important problem in medicine (not only psychology): there is a good difference between knowing the solution for something, and convincing the patient to abide to that solution. Each of us has their own set of beliefs about where working solutions come from: professionals, the internet, fortune tellers, friends, self help books. If professionals do not have enough strength in this set, they will not work. I am not saying that fortune tellers are the solution; I am just saying that this problem exists and that the fact that people believe in medicine professionals cannot be taken for granted.

NikolaNovak 7y ago
>>" there is a good difference between knowing the solution for something, and convincing the patient to abide to that solution." This is an absolutely key observation in many facets in life, and I still struggle with it. Whether presenting an IT solution to client; or something more mundane in real life, knowing or arriving at the "right answer" (let's leave that definition / certainty on aside for moment;) is only part of the battle - and not even necessarily the hardest one, requiring most of one's empathy/cleverness/skills. Making it happen, likely by convincing/persuading all the parties, is frequently the more difficult, and certainly for me the more frustrating, part of the process. As a (historically) technical geek, I've (historically) been of the narrow minded "Here's the right, demonstrated, supported, proven answer; why are you not following it? I don't understand what's happening..." outlook. I'm getting a bit better in my old age... :->
pjc50 7y ago
> I believe this is an important problem in medicine (not only psychology): there is a good difference between knowing the solution for something, and convincing the patient to abide to that solution. The mirror image of this: the patient convincing the doctor that the problem is real and should be taken seriously. This is an absolutely huge problem for all sorts of chronic discomforts and minor mental health issues, or problems experienced by women. Alternative medicine will always listen to you and take you seriously (so long as you pay them). That can be more helpful than being told there's nothing wrong with you or that you're faking it for attention. Even if the actual treatment is nonsense, the "consultation" is "real".

anewguy9000 7y ago

i feel the same way about therapists too..

jermaustin1 7y ago
Licensed therapists have to conform to a recognized standard in ethics and methods around psychotherapy. There are then different types of specialties/theories that build atop that base framework. Psychology (like medicine and computer-science) is an ever evolving science. Just 50 years ago, we would try to shock the depression out of you - and it worked for a short period of time. We haven't reached the final say in how the mind works, or who we are, and we probably never will, but every year we get closer.
- jalk 7y ago
  Electroconvulsive therapy is still in use on patients that do not react to other treatments. Patients are anesthetized and the doses have been lowered today though. https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/electroconvulsive-therapy/about/pac-20393894 https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/electroconvulsiv...
  - jermaustin1 7y ago
    It's always be a very effective method for some mental health issues. It's just dangerous (it affects more than what you are targeting), and should always be a last resort (which it is now). In the past it was the first or second answer to a LOT of illnesses from the made up (hysteria - read: horny wife and inexplicable weight gain) to the legitimate (depression, hyperactivity, bipolar disorders).
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

pi-squared 7y ago

The harm is - this things spread. One person going to a psychic in an isolated case that doesn't matter. When that person can communicate with other people - it's a problem. One person believing in woo-woo make other people believe in woo-woo which eventually spirals down to people believing in all sort of things that are not scientific, makind science equal or less than psycho-stuff, making people doubt things since they can't tell scientific claim from astrolloger's claim, making people believe in Trump's fake news lala, global warming is a myth and all sort of bullshit because they cannot differentiate between "magic" and reality. So yes - harm done to the planet.

scoutt 7y ago

> but that whats the harm if it makes you feel better. Compulsive shopping: works for some. It's not the final solution, but it may make you feel better. And some will profit from it. The same applies to astrology.

jermaustin1 7y ago
My wife was applying to be a licensed clinician in a remote town back in March (Alamosa, Colorado). One of the interview questions was, "What is a self-care ritual you currently have that would be made more difficult by moving here?" Its slightly morphed version of a common interview question in mental health around self-care. Her answer was simple, and had an immediate echo from the other clinicians. "Target" If you don't know Alamosa, Colorado, it is a decent sized town that is about 2.5 hours from civilization. It has a new Walmart Super Center and a Tractor Supply, but that is about it until you get to pueblo for a Target (2.5 hours away), or Colorado Springs (3.5 hours away). All of the clinicians said their favorite part of the yearly meeting in Denver was going to Target.
mlang23 7y ago
The same applies to heroin as well. Deception is deception, no matter how you twist and turn it.
- coldtea 7y ago
  No, the same doesn't apply, as heroin will also cause harm to your body, whereas the other examples (shop therapy for example) don't necessarily cause harm. Not to mention heroin being illegal... You need a better example to refute the parent's example

Zenst 7y ago

Gets down too a case of people want to talk and have somebody listen and tell them the obvious that the person talking is so emotionally blind to see that themselves and even when those close to them have already told them that. Case of people need somebody removed from all emotional attachment and to lay it out to them (talk) so that they can point it out over a friend who already knows all the talk just giving the answer to them when their mind is less receptive. Now to translate that into something comparable to the HN community: We have rubber ducks ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging ), whilst they don't talk back, they force you to focus and in a way that lets you cut thru the fog and mist and listen to yourself. With that, people really do talk to their plants and pets and better of for it. But whatever process allows you to cut thru the brain fog of whatever form, run with that. However, I do not recommend pulling out a plastic duck upon public transport and talking to it, as society is just not advanced enough to handle. But we all have a dream. [EDIT - ADD reference URL]

lonelappde 7y ago
Rubber ducks don't charge $50+/hr though. They aren't quacks!

GistNoesis 7y ago

I tend to agree with your wife. Whatever works! It's probably more dependent of the competence of the psychologist vs the competence of the psychic. The way I see it, is that's two sides of the same coin. The psychologist would be the "do no harm" side, the psychic would be "try to cure" side. The psychologist will assign you to a box. The psychic will let you float around. The psychologist is convinced he isn't a crook. The psychic is not convinced he is a crook. The thing is once any system is complex enough, it's quite hard to know what impact it may have. Many ways can be good, and some ways are definitely bad. Only when the two sides are balanced, is the path illuminated.

chooseaname 7y ago

I agree with you. My spouse and I foster. We see the effects of trauma day in and day out; both in the children and their bio parents. People cannot get the help they need from a psychic. The trauma has rewired their brains and they need to learn tools to cope with that. A psychic won't teach them any of those coping tools. A psychic is a cigarette to a drug addict. It's another addiction that takes the edge off.

jermaustin1 7y ago
Now a Therapist can also be that cigarette. The anxiety I used to feel when I or my therapist was going away and wouldn't see each other for a couple weeks to a month was harder to deal with than I thought it would be. But we worked through that. A therapist is a cigarette that tries to get you to quit. My wife says that her ultimate goal is to no longer be needed by a couple so she can move on to another.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  A good therapist. We also have therapists that exist to maximize billable hours, and build whole theories of practice around it, like 40hr/week ABA therapy.
  - aidenn0 7y ago
    There's also shitty therapists who don't know what they are doing and so shame their clients to hide their incompetence. As per Sturgeon's law[1] these therapists outnumber the good ones. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law

Allower 7y ago

The problem is a relative one. I could make the same argument about anyone and everyone, we very clearly have not achieved perfect knowledge, necessarily we are living a sub-optimal existence. Suggesting you know better is a slippery slope, I may think I know better than you, and for your own good you should only eat vegetables and other plant based foods. Even the things we believe to be true are often later to be proved false, we should not be over-confident in our understanding of the world and life. Live and let live, educate by all means, share your experiences and education, continue to support free inquiry and self-reliance, but we should not try to control other peoples behavior so directly.

ako 7y ago

As far as i'm aware, there's no proof in the world that suggests that astrology and religion are not completely interchangeable in this respect... Especially the part where "they are praying on peoples innocent stupidity". It's really frustrating how some people can go from completely rational on something like astrology, to completely irrational when it comes to religion, when they are basically the same thing.

coldtea 7y ago
>As far as i'm aware, there's no proof in the world that suggests that astrology and religion are not completely interchangeable in this respect... Especially the part where "they are praying on peoples innocent stupidity". Well, religion has been studied for evolutionary advantages. And of course religion has shaped and sustained whole civilizations, arts, philosophy, etc, in ways which astrology did not, and in many ways that people still identify as beneficial.
- ako 7y ago
  Yes, it has evolutionary advantages, just like placebos have advantages. Again, not so different from astrology. Depends on how gullible the believer is. And how much force the religious institutions use to enforce the correct behavior of the supposed believers (and now for something completely different... ;-).
  - ulisesrmzroche 7y ago
    A placebo works whether you like it or not that’s the beauty about placebos
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Yes, it has evolutionary advantages, just like placebos have advantages The simile being that the various reglious Gods are also not real? That's irrelevant, because religion, as a human practice, and the actions, practices, decisions taken based on them are actually existing and actually modifying the world. So that would be more like a placebo that made you do X (e.g. go on a diet) and you see effects from that. In that case, it's not a placebo anymore.

rolltiide 7y ago

I got into astrology to hit on women. Not so different than men returning to churches to expand their dating pool even if they have to put up with illogical customs, a religious spouse and subject their future children to the same cycle. I found very many parallels to religion but without the consequences. With astrology, disagreement doesnt mean “burn the infidels for all eternity” it just means “please dont make fun of me too hard”, which is kind of refreshing for an organized religion So as a surrogate for religion and concentrated population of women that aren't encumbered by judgment, its basically perfect - I think this goes hand in hand with your observation, there is no reflection on your own decisions. There is no hell, just celestial external control of all your decisions based on what time you were born and having a modicum of foresight into what to expect. People are so used to being dismissed - specifically women ridiculed by men in a kneejerk reaction - that simply not doing that is an in and the conversation quickly takes other non-astrology directions This discussion seems to be about actually practicing it and assuming any merit of predictive abilities, all I will add is that I can see how the incentives are misaligned to admitting the issues with it I’m just here for the ditzy lean spiritual chicks, if that’s what you really want play along instead of immediately torpedoing your eligibility

slothtrop 7y ago

> My wife thinks that so long as it is helping, it isn't necessarily bad. The black and white categorization serves to justify it's continued use, add to the fact, "feeling better" isn't a result of tackling deep-rooted issues in this instance but getting a fix. You can "feel better" after eating ice cream but your problems are still there. Taking a hit of pleasantries and affirmations might as well be free. She doesn't appreciate the fact that a therapist could be far better for real change.

icebraining 7y ago
I think the issue is that not seeing a psychic doesn't mean one will see a therapist.

izzydata 7y ago

I feel the same way about religion in general. It doesn't seem any different. I find that it causes way more harm to society and peoples minds than any good it does. Religious upbringing or being indoctrinated into not thinking for yourself as a child is probably a likely reason people turn to things such as psychics.

ARandomerDude 7y ago
> Religious upbringing or being indoctrinated into not thinking for yourself This is a pretty strange claim to me. I definitely agree there are some religious strands that are anti-intellectual. But then there are Augustine, Ambrose, Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, Francis Turretin, John Owen, etc., whose works most people are simply incapable of grasping, and fewer still can equal. Many of us are trained with these intellectual giants to show us not what, but how, to think. Are you aware of these great thinkers and their contributions to your thought life? To pick a random example among many, our concept of personhood relies heavily on a theologian named Turtullian, before whom person (Latin, "persona") merely meant an actor's mask (i.e, the role one plays). Tertullian explored the enduring "substance" of a person, regardless of what role they play in life -- concepts we now assume as a given, but were hotly contested at the time.
- LessDmesg 7y ago
  Religion is just paleolithic thinking, a primitive mental and emotional representation of authority. The chieftain of the tribe, and later the state, is the mediating and ordering force in human society. But since a chieftain or a king is just a man, the simplest way to justify his superior position is to imagine supernatural beings above him... The fact that some smart people lived at a time when science and technology weren't well developed, and hence fell for this mental trap, doesn't mean that we should resort to caveman thinking now.
- izzydata 7y ago
  People are still intelligent creatures after all. It doesn't surprise me that eventually over hundreds or thousands of years people managed to have some critical thoughts.

onorton 7y ago

"praying on" You could mean "preying" but I've realised that either could work. Is there a term for a malapropism that still makes sense?

jermaustin1 7y ago
Thanks and fixed. But like you said, it could work either way.
Spare_account 7y ago
I believe the term is 'eggcorn' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggcorn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggcorn

bernierocks 7y ago

Even worse are the mediums because they are creating a false memory of a loved one.

coldtea 7y ago

>What gets me about astrologists and psychics, is they are praying on peoples innocent stupidity. At best they are reading their clients semi-accurately, at worst they are swindling them. So like any other business these days, and considerably better than Facebook? >I feel that the amount of good they could do is way less than the harm they could do. And that the dangers of allowing another person to give you untrained/regulated advise is a terrible path to go down instead of understanding yourself. It's not like we have these things (personal life advice, mental health, etc), sorted out, and some "expert" can come and give solid advice because they studied the subject at university. If anything experts in those fields are as much quacks as the astrologists, but with extra state power to boot. Some of the worst advice has been given by doctors and specialists -- all the way to forced lobotomies and electric shock treatment. If anything, the regular psycic (not a full on con-man) would be more careful with their advice/interventions, because they don't want to rock the boat too much, and knowing their trick, they don't have a "god complex" like many experts develop. Heck, those "experts" are on the top of professionals committing suicide themselves, and on the top of professionals with mental issues: "A high suicide rate among psychiatrists (58 to 65/100,000 compared with that of the general population, 11/100,000) has been reported by the following: Freeman, Blachly et al, DeSole et al, and Pond"

DanBC 7y ago
> "A high suicide rate among psychiatrists What is vicarious trauma, and why might it relate to psychiatrists?
- coldtea 7y ago
  Did you think I was suggesting that such experts were somehow more prone to such issues regardless of their profession (e.g. by their nurture or DNA)? My whole point is that people with vicarious trauma shouldn't be guiding others on how to deal with traumas or stressful situations, and as if they we have this "trauma" thing sorted out and their trained pros that know how to overcome it...

SilasX 7y ago

I’m surprised. Half the time I hear “fake it till you make it, it doesn’t matter that you have doubts, you just have to be confident, and that will inspire others and clear the necessary roadblocks”. But psychics are like, the manifestation of that mentality in its purest form, and it feels like doublespeak to turn around and say, “hey, that’s not 100% rigorous, don’t sell naive randos on it!”

jermaustin1 7y ago
Because mental health is medicine too. "Fake it til you make it" where you will cause minimal harm to others. If I sell myself as the best Asp.Net developer in the world, and get hired to build a DotNetNuke eCommerce Site. Will my client kill themselves because I accidentally broke their website? Likely not. A psychic could lead a person down a terrible path pretty easily, though. A psychologist is trained, required, and regularly retested on their ability to spot potential troubling behaviors and report them.
cies 7y ago
Maybe "fake it till you make it" is substantially different from "fake it till someone else hopefully makes it". Let's say you are already behaving a little like the software developer you aspire to be. In case you hit a wall you put in evening time to read up, try harder, in order to keep up your appearance. This is what I mean by "fake it till you make it". In case you are an astrologer or psychic, you pretend to know what's going on with your "patient", you pretend that you can help them with issues. If this is not working out you cannot (as I understand it) put in more of your time to get on top of things. This is the difference I think.

wolco 7y ago

I understand your point but only putting trust in regulated/trained professionals sounds like a really simple answer. Friends are untrained but can provide great advice because they understand the person and can see repeated patterns. Believing in the power of planet movements can affect our lives is a religion not a science. Would you tell that person not to believe in God because based on science we can't prove they exist? Do you consider that harmful because they are basically the same thing?

pavel_lishin 7y ago
> Friends are untrained but can provide great advice because they understand the person and can see repeated patterns. But your friends see you often; an astrologer sees you when you call her up and pay up. And they only see what you tell them; your friends get to observe you and see those patterns. > Would you tell that person not to believe in God because based on science we can't prove they exist? Do you consider that harmful because they are basically the same thing? If you're having serious emotional issues, and your priest's solution is to tell you to pray harder, then yeah, I'd tell them to consider that maybe their religion isn't helping and maybe actively harming.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  My friends tell me to stop seeing my astrologer. My astrogoler tells me to stop seeing my friends. It's a hard problem.
jermaustin1 7y ago
As my wife's therapist has on her cards, "You can talk to me when you can't talk to your friends." Friends are great to talk to, but they are only as good at helping as we are at being completely open with them. There are things I'd tell my therapist LONG before I'd tell any friend. As for religion, I believe it is a mixed bag. It can be used for good and evil. But most people are religious for the community more than the religion. When I used to go to church regularly, I went to see people, talk to people, feel loved by strangers. Know that if something bad happened, people in my community would help. Do I believe in God, a god, or gods? Probably? Maybe? No? Yes? I dont know, and day to day that changes. Day to day, passing kindness to neighbors and strangers doesn't change.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago

> My wife thinks that so long as it is helping, it isn't necessarily bad. She feels that people shouldn't see psychics or read too much into the movement of planets and stars, but that whats the harm if it makes you feel better. I don't know your wife of course, but I feel that this might be a mischaracterization of the sentiment. Sometimes people's model of reality is incompatible with yours, and since communication requires shared context it is difficult to convey your true meaning in a way that can be readily understood. One solution to this is to build up all the context that person needs to understand what you're saying, but this is slow and because it may require them to destroy and rebuild their fundamental understanding of the world it can cause quite a lot of suffering. An alternative is to reframe what you're saying into terms that are compatible with their current model. Even though the understanding you convey may be less accurate, it is often good enough.

NorthOf33rd 7y ago
This is a wonderfully succinct way of expressing to my significant other what I've been trying to get across for years. I'm considering printing this out, laminating it, and presenting it to her. We aren't the same race or gender, and while I try incredibly hard to understand her experience, it's slow going, difficult, and emotional. Truthfully, it would do everyone well to have such a card.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
superflit 7y ago
I think this is one of the best comments in communications. Struggling to make my point through similar scenarios your explanation hit me. Do you have more resources so I can improve?
kryogen1c 7y ago
> communication requires shared context this is pretty grandiose. its beautiful, but if youre trying to help people communicate, "adjust your models of reality" isnt actionable advice. the core problem you allude to is that communication is built on unexamined assumptions, but this does not require a cosmic realignment to get better at solving. a perfect example of this is trying to make your partner feel loved. if you tell your partner you love them but that doesnt make them feel loved, you are miscommunicating. i am regurgitating the words of "The 5 Love Languages", by Gary Chapman. it is a short, cheap, book that will change your life and upend your cosmos : ) https://www.amazon.com/Love-Languages-Secret-that-Lasts-ebook/dp/B00OICLVBI/ https://www.amazon.com/Love-Languages-Secret-that-Lasts-eboo... no affiliation, except that i bought and read it and it made me a better person.

BurningFrog 7y ago

> My wife thinks that so long as it is helping, it isn't necessarily bad. I'd say that's absolutely the scientific, empirical approach! Sounds like these psychics serve as a low key religion for these people. As a pretty hardline atheists, I have over the years had to admit that religion really works at giving many people hope and sanity. We may even, as humans, be hardwired to require religion in our lives. I sometimes miss that I can't have that in my life, because I can see reality as it is...

tstrimple 7y ago
The placebo effect is amazing. It even works if you know it's a placebo! That's why I still take a ton of vitamin C when I feel a cold coming on and it seems to prevent it most of the time. While I haven't tried it, I'm sure something like prayer could have beneficial effects in Atheists as well for that reason.
- santoriv 7y ago
  Sure, as long as you don't confusing praying with being proactive.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Endy 7y ago
    Rubber-ducking can be proactive though. And does it really differ if you're talking out your program to a rubber duck or if you're talking out your other challenges to something "else"? I would say they're pretty well matched.
- wool_gather 7y ago
  Absolutely; witness the number of people who don't participate in organized religion but have some kind of ad-hoc personal practice. Or, better, notice how many people (I'm one) continue to entertain small superstitions or borderline-magical habits even while, if asked, they'll say they know they're ridiculous.

loceng 7y ago

I haven't thought about this before - however someone having someone - anyone - they trust and feel comfortable talking to when they feel the need is better than having no one, no?

ping_pong 7y ago

I think it can really come down to: Some people want to take the red pill, and some people want to take the blue pill. Why should it matter to you what pill they decide to take? Most of this world lives in some sort of lie or deceit anyway, similar to those in the Matrix. Your privilege is having a choice because you see above it. Many people don't have that privilege and can't function at that level. I have more than a few friends that can't see past their own emotional trauma and they are now approaching their 40s and some in their 50s. Does it matter if they see the world a different way than us, and in a way that makes them happier? As long as they are happy than the alternative, does it matter?

blanche_ 7y ago

Well I think fortunetelling was some primitive form of therapy. When I was in my teens I've got really into that stuff and it is actually written in tarot books, that the intent of the whole thing should be listening and helping people. There are few discourses in therapy and not all of them focus on facing past trauma, that doesn't mean they are bad because of that (CBT for example). You have a point with giving untrained/unregulated advice, but when I think about it something seems odd. Like when you ask your friends, close ones, they aren't therapist, their advice isn't regulated and even they may have bad intentions. Talking to other people about your problems at all, no matter who they are seems helpful.

Jd 7y ago

The problem with "psychics" is ultimately a more general problem about access to help, especially the field of psychological help. The help anyone could do is entirely dependent on the ability of the person to get access to the help. For example, suppose that person A has problem C. Person B has solution D. Now, even if solution D is the perfect solution, one must figure out the access path to that solution. In this case, the problem is how to create a process whereby person A is most likely to get to the appropriate solution. My guess is that for the most part people will prioritize a) trust in the solution provider b) ease of access and c) cost, not necessarily in that order. There probably is some bias towards an easy solution (e.g. take this pill) as opposed to a complex solution (e.g. get a B.S. in computer science). It could be that a phone psychic, simply by being immediately available and inexpensive, could provide a better throughput of low level psychological issues than the higher barrier to entry of the traditional psychiatric industry. The fact that someone self-describes as a "psychic" is in some ways just another form of marketing, one with a certain target demographic. Admittedly, this demographic might hypothetically be better served by a different set of solution providers (in the same ways that the demographic most keen on faith healers might be better served by licensed physicians), but it's not clear that they would go to them for all of the reasons mentioned above. All in all, this is one of these areas that is extremely difficult to judge, both because of the difficulty in evaluation solutions to psychological issues and all of the cost and marketing issues.

heavyset_go 7y ago

> I feel that the amount of good they could do is way less than the harm they could do. And that the dangers of allowing another person to give you untrained/regulated advise is a terrible path to go down instead of understanding yourself. I know a couple that is very involved in their church, and took it upon themselves to provide marriage counseling to members of the congregation. The couple has no background, training or certification for the "counseling" they provide. I feel exactly the same way about the couple in my anecdote as you do psychics.

isoskeles 7y ago

> And that the dangers of allowing another person to give you untrained/regulated advise is a terrible path to go down instead of understanding yourself. I’d allow for untrained/regulated advice from family or friends, although this is considering you know these people and trust that some of them will give decent advice.