5 ms·

Doesn't this kind of argument work for almost every type of fraud though? "The customers were paying for the fraud, not what was advertised."

criley2 7y ago
Would a magician then be fraud? They purport to move a card, force a coin, etc, but they do not do those things, they trick you instead. How about "sports entertainment" like professional wrestling? They purport to provide a sport, but in reality it's a fraudulently scripted drama. Would that be a fraud? Customers appear happy to buy into many things even with the full knowledge of what it is.
- jedimastert 7y ago
  There's a kind of ethos in magic and illusion: "being honest about dishonesty". MAny many magicians are very upfront about their "dishonesty" and have a disdain for people who aren't. This is why you see many magicians rail against psychics and faith healers. Yes, they basically do the same thing, but the magicians label themselves as such to be honest about the dishonesty. See Derren Brown's stageshow "Miracle" or the & Teller's Magic and Mystery Tour episode about the indian rope trick. It's a pretty big deal in the in the art.
- rimliu 7y ago
  In the magician's case everyone, except maybe small kids, knows that what they see is not real and just the illusion. The entertainment comes from the fact that we don't know how that illusion is done or even if we do know we still admire the mastery. In the case of astrology, cold reading, etc. many sincerely believe that there are some higher forces at work.
  - criley2 7y ago
    I don't agree. Magic works on a lot more people than you're willing to admit, and a lot less people truly believe in psychics than you think. I also notice you didn't touch professional wrestling, another case where while many know it's fake, many others enjoy it as if it were real. Or if we want to get political, let's talk about religion and Christian churches. Is it fraudulent to offer a religious service to people who believe it's real?
    - dr_hooo 7y ago
      While I personally don't get the appeal of wrestling, I accept that some people get enjoyment out of it. However beyond losing them some money (tickets, merchandise) the harm in this case is minimal. For psychics and religion? not so much. People who blindly take what they are told as the truth may make life defining decisions based on the "advice" given. In some cases the outcome may be benign or even positive, but in most cases a real persons action are influenced by statements not grounded in reality. So overall it is valid to call out these "services" as fraudulent IMO.
    - paulryanrogers 7y ago
      > Is it fraudulent to offer a religious service to people who believe it's real? If one knows something is untrue then I'd say it's fraud. After decades growing up in increasingly progressive churches I'd say that secular education is whittling away at all the falsifiable claims. Conveniently there are scriptures like "don't test the Lord your God." So there are parts that, in their view, can never be disproven. (Of course god can and does test people and violate free will.) EDIT: fixed incomplete quote
- ivanhoe 7y ago
  Magicians are entertainers, and it's fake just like all entertainment is, like the movie characters and plots are fake. If you're adult you're expected to know that. It makes it very different from astrology, where people actually believe in it. They're selling people advices as actual educated truths extrapolated from stars by means of science. Astrologists are not less of con-artists than say a person practicing medicine without any medical education or license. They might help one, or two, or ten people by using common sense, but sooner or later they'll cause harm to someone because they're just a bunch of charlatans.
  - criley2 7y ago
    >like the movie characters and plots are fake. If you're adult you're expected to know that. It makes it very different from astrology, where people actually believe in it. They're selling people advices as actual educated truths Okay, so what about religion then? Would it not be fraudulent using this criteria you've laid out? Or maybe it's less fraudulent since many religions operate under a tithing "donation" scheme instead?
    - laumars 7y ago
      The key here is intent. With religion people aren't intending to deceive -- it's what they believe. With astrology psychics know they don't have magical powers. There's a boat load of generalisations here though so will be plenty of exceptions to what I've said. edit: it's really weird that there's two comments posted around the same time and making the same point. One comment has several replies agreeing with it where as this one has been downvoted and a comment disagreeing with it. I'm not complaining though, it's just amusing me how erratic this site can sometimes be.
      - criley2 7y ago
        Are you suggesting that no psychic believes what they say, or that no priest questions what they say? I would strongly push back on both of those assertions, myself.
- acomjean 7y ago
  Magic is used to swindle. (Three card monte, I saw the cups and balls on the streets of Paris taking bets). I find that different than paying for a magic show. When I was a kid we weren’t sure the wrestling was scripted. When people wanted to bet on it. Regulators made it known. People still enjoy it, much like scripted movies and tv.
- dkersten 7y ago
  A good magician won't pretend to have supernatural abilities and instead treat it like any other performance art.
randomb_1979 7y ago
>>Doesn't this kind of argument work for almost every type of fraud though? "The customers were paying for the fraud, not what was advertised." Duh... why else would people still be using fiat currency?
- ilikehurdles 7y ago
  Easier to carry a wallet full of cash than a wallet full of beaver pelts, water, or building supplies.
Sean1708 7y ago
I think what makes this really tough morally (at least compared to "normal" fraud) is that this fraud can actually help the person being defrauded, and in some cases might be the only way to reasonably help them.

criley2 7y ago

Would a magician then be fraud? They purport to move a card, force a coin, etc, but they do not do those things, they trick you instead. How about "sports entertainment" like professional wrestling? They purport to provide a sport, but in reality it's a fraudulently scripted drama. Would that be a fraud? Customers appear happy to buy into many things even with the full knowledge of what it is.

jedimastert 7y ago
There's a kind of ethos in magic and illusion: "being honest about dishonesty". MAny many magicians are very upfront about their "dishonesty" and have a disdain for people who aren't. This is why you see many magicians rail against psychics and faith healers. Yes, they basically do the same thing, but the magicians label themselves as such to be honest about the dishonesty. See Derren Brown's stageshow "Miracle" or the & Teller's Magic and Mystery Tour episode about the indian rope trick. It's a pretty big deal in the in the art.
rimliu 7y ago
In the magician's case everyone, except maybe small kids, knows that what they see is not real and just the illusion. The entertainment comes from the fact that we don't know how that illusion is done or even if we do know we still admire the mastery. In the case of astrology, cold reading, etc. many sincerely believe that there are some higher forces at work.
- criley2 7y ago
  I don't agree. Magic works on a lot more people than you're willing to admit, and a lot less people truly believe in psychics than you think. I also notice you didn't touch professional wrestling, another case where while many know it's fake, many others enjoy it as if it were real. Or if we want to get political, let's talk about religion and Christian churches. Is it fraudulent to offer a religious service to people who believe it's real?
  - dr_hooo 7y ago
    While I personally don't get the appeal of wrestling, I accept that some people get enjoyment out of it. However beyond losing them some money (tickets, merchandise) the harm in this case is minimal. For psychics and religion? not so much. People who blindly take what they are told as the truth may make life defining decisions based on the "advice" given. In some cases the outcome may be benign or even positive, but in most cases a real persons action are influenced by statements not grounded in reality. So overall it is valid to call out these "services" as fraudulent IMO.
  - paulryanrogers 7y ago
    > Is it fraudulent to offer a religious service to people who believe it's real? If one knows something is untrue then I'd say it's fraud. After decades growing up in increasingly progressive churches I'd say that secular education is whittling away at all the falsifiable claims. Conveniently there are scriptures like "don't test the Lord your God." So there are parts that, in their view, can never be disproven. (Of course god can and does test people and violate free will.) EDIT: fixed incomplete quote
ivanhoe 7y ago
Magicians are entertainers, and it's fake just like all entertainment is, like the movie characters and plots are fake. If you're adult you're expected to know that. It makes it very different from astrology, where people actually believe in it. They're selling people advices as actual educated truths extrapolated from stars by means of science. Astrologists are not less of con-artists than say a person practicing medicine without any medical education or license. They might help one, or two, or ten people by using common sense, but sooner or later they'll cause harm to someone because they're just a bunch of charlatans.
- criley2 7y ago
  >like the movie characters and plots are fake. If you're adult you're expected to know that. It makes it very different from astrology, where people actually believe in it. They're selling people advices as actual educated truths Okay, so what about religion then? Would it not be fraudulent using this criteria you've laid out? Or maybe it's less fraudulent since many religions operate under a tithing "donation" scheme instead?
  - laumars 7y ago
    The key here is intent. With religion people aren't intending to deceive -- it's what they believe. With astrology psychics know they don't have magical powers. There's a boat load of generalisations here though so will be plenty of exceptions to what I've said. edit: it's really weird that there's two comments posted around the same time and making the same point. One comment has several replies agreeing with it where as this one has been downvoted and a comment disagreeing with it. I'm not complaining though, it's just amusing me how erratic this site can sometimes be.
    - criley2 7y ago
      Are you suggesting that no psychic believes what they say, or that no priest questions what they say? I would strongly push back on both of those assertions, myself.
acomjean 7y ago
Magic is used to swindle. (Three card monte, I saw the cups and balls on the streets of Paris taking bets). I find that different than paying for a magic show. When I was a kid we weren’t sure the wrestling was scripted. When people wanted to bet on it. Regulators made it known. People still enjoy it, much like scripted movies and tv.
dkersten 7y ago
A good magician won't pretend to have supernatural abilities and instead treat it like any other performance art.

randomb_1979 7y ago

>>Doesn't this kind of argument work for almost every type of fraud though? "The customers were paying for the fraud, not what was advertised." Duh... why else would people still be using fiat currency?

ilikehurdles 7y ago
Easier to carry a wallet full of cash than a wallet full of beaver pelts, water, or building supplies.

Sean1708 7y ago

I think what makes this really tough morally (at least compared to "normal" fraud) is that this fraud can actually help the person being defrauded, and in some cases might be the only way to reasonably help them.