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You don't have to be patronizing. Selection bias is besides the point. My writing a common risk is to warn people from going towards the extreme of becoming psy

You don't have to be patronizing. Selection bias is besides the point. My writing a common risk is to warn people from going towards the extreme of becoming psychedelic enthusiasts (abusers would be more apt). Your "general population" who are given psychedelics and meditation runs the risk of falling into that extreme (it is opening pandora's box), and their therapist isn't going to be there to babysit them all the time, this much is evident from prescription drug abuse.

olyjohn 7y ago
I'm not an expert on drugs, but comparing psychedelics to any kind of prescription seems... I dunno, like not a very good comparison. Are there any psychedelics that are openly prescribed the way other "prescription drugs" are? I mean just saying "Abuse of prescription drugs" is such an ambiguous thing. If you're referring to opioids, etc that have an extreme physically addictive effect, that's not at all like how psychedelics work.
- omarchowdhury 7y ago
  Prescription drugs were being compared in context of being dispensed under guidance of a licensed professional. The licensed professional isn't always going to be around to make sure the patient doesn't start down the path of substance abuse, and such abuse potentials are not limited to drugs that are by and by chemically addictive.
Covzire 7y ago
What do you base your views on? Reading reports on a forum? You're point seems valid enough, but I get the feeling there's a lot of nuance your comments are paving over. For one, any research I ever did on them seem to indicate they're very "anti-party" and those taking them did so for very specific self-improvement reasons.
thatcat 7y ago
It's hard to abuse psilocybin bc there is a limitation to the frequency that a dose will be effective. If you take it two days in a row, there will be little to no effect on the second day. The longer you wait, the more effect it can have - leading even enthusiasts to wait.
- euinq 7y ago
  In addition to rapid tolerance buildup (which in a dopaminergic drug would be a danger of rapid progression to overdose), in my experience psilocybin and other psychedelic tryptamines have an inherent moderating effect in many people. I don't really feel like having psychedelic experiences often; it's just not a useful state of being most of the time, and it's not so neurochemically rewarding and physically comfortable that it's highly likely for addiction to develop. It's far less likely to become addicted to psilocybin than THC, alcohol, or caffeine. I do agree that always combining meditation with any substance could lead to a dependence on that substance to experience the deepest meditative states. However, used once in a while (which is the most I really want psychedelics anyway), I can agree with the findings in this paper, the experience sticks with you and can be remembered. pazimzadeh's analogy is spot on. > Right. If you're trying to metaphorically reach the peak of a mountain, psychedelics are like a helicopter that lets you fly around, find the path and even reach the top. > It's possible that you'll grow to rely on the helicopter to climb the mountain, but hopefully what you take away from it is that there is in fact a path (or accept that there's not - and you might has well climb a different mountain).
- wsc981 7y ago
  I'd just like to add, back when I was a bit younger (perhaps 23 years old or so), I used to take magic mushrooms with my friends once every four months or so. It was not something I (and I imagine my friends) took lightly. I made sure there weren't any big things happening that weekend, no stress, etc... In that way it wasn't even very feasible to take these shrooms more often, often things like work would get in the way. In total I might have taken magic mushrooms maybe 10 times. Now I don't really feel the need to anymore, but I think it could be interesting to try some time in the future with my girlfriend. Most of my friends don't use psychedelics in any way anymore. Perhaps in part because many friends are starting families now and it's hard to find the time when having a girlfriend and/or children, etc...
vanderZwan 7y ago
> My writing a common risk is to warn people from going towards the extreme of becoming psychedelic enthusiasts (abusers would be more apt). That is a very different claim than: > Combining psychedelics with meditation opens the very real risk of conditioning one's meditation practice to require psychedelics to have any efficacy. ... which is what the discussion started with.
- omarchowdhury 7y ago
  The two premises are interdependent.

olyjohn 7y ago

I'm not an expert on drugs, but comparing psychedelics to any kind of prescription seems... I dunno, like not a very good comparison. Are there any psychedelics that are openly prescribed the way other "prescription drugs" are? I mean just saying "Abuse of prescription drugs" is such an ambiguous thing. If you're referring to opioids, etc that have an extreme physically addictive effect, that's not at all like how psychedelics work.

omarchowdhury 7y ago
Prescription drugs were being compared in context of being dispensed under guidance of a licensed professional. The licensed professional isn't always going to be around to make sure the patient doesn't start down the path of substance abuse, and such abuse potentials are not limited to drugs that are by and by chemically addictive.

Covzire 7y ago

What do you base your views on? Reading reports on a forum? You're point seems valid enough, but I get the feeling there's a lot of nuance your comments are paving over. For one, any research I ever did on them seem to indicate they're very "anti-party" and those taking them did so for very specific self-improvement reasons.

thatcat 7y ago

It's hard to abuse psilocybin bc there is a limitation to the frequency that a dose will be effective. If you take it two days in a row, there will be little to no effect on the second day. The longer you wait, the more effect it can have - leading even enthusiasts to wait.

euinq 7y ago
In addition to rapid tolerance buildup (which in a dopaminergic drug would be a danger of rapid progression to overdose), in my experience psilocybin and other psychedelic tryptamines have an inherent moderating effect in many people. I don't really feel like having psychedelic experiences often; it's just not a useful state of being most of the time, and it's not so neurochemically rewarding and physically comfortable that it's highly likely for addiction to develop. It's far less likely to become addicted to psilocybin than THC, alcohol, or caffeine. I do agree that always combining meditation with any substance could lead to a dependence on that substance to experience the deepest meditative states. However, used once in a while (which is the most I really want psychedelics anyway), I can agree with the findings in this paper, the experience sticks with you and can be remembered. pazimzadeh's analogy is spot on. > Right. If you're trying to metaphorically reach the peak of a mountain, psychedelics are like a helicopter that lets you fly around, find the path and even reach the top. > It's possible that you'll grow to rely on the helicopter to climb the mountain, but hopefully what you take away from it is that there is in fact a path (or accept that there's not - and you might has well climb a different mountain).
wsc981 7y ago
I'd just like to add, back when I was a bit younger (perhaps 23 years old or so), I used to take magic mushrooms with my friends once every four months or so. It was not something I (and I imagine my friends) took lightly. I made sure there weren't any big things happening that weekend, no stress, etc... In that way it wasn't even very feasible to take these shrooms more often, often things like work would get in the way. In total I might have taken magic mushrooms maybe 10 times. Now I don't really feel the need to anymore, but I think it could be interesting to try some time in the future with my girlfriend. Most of my friends don't use psychedelics in any way anymore. Perhaps in part because many friends are starting families now and it's hard to find the time when having a girlfriend and/or children, etc...

vanderZwan 7y ago

> My writing a common risk is to warn people from going towards the extreme of becoming psychedelic enthusiasts (abusers would be more apt). That is a very different claim than: > Combining psychedelics with meditation opens the very real risk of conditioning one's meditation practice to require psychedelics to have any efficacy. ... which is what the discussion started with.

omarchowdhury 7y ago
The two premises are interdependent.