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What did I relate if not an anecdote? Take a look at shroomery.org for a large group of people's attitude towards psychedelics and meditation, larger than n=39.

oarabbus_ 7y ago
There's plenty more who have found benefits from meditation and psychedelics.
- omarchowdhury 7y ago
  That's not being disputed. I'm one of those people. It's not an endeavor to take on willy nilly, hence pointing out risks.
  - jaffau 7y ago
    >> I'm one of those people. Sorry brother, I had you all wrong. Meditation is often too broad and connotatively laden a term to have immediately productive cross discipline discussions about techniques and outcomes. We'd all benefit from an accessible but revised vocabulary for these matters.
jaffau 7y ago
So you're saying that one of the oldest and most popular message boards for psilocybin enthusiasts is frequented by tens of people who have different ideas about proportionate combinations of psychadelics and mental exercises than conventional buddhists?
mistermann 7y ago
> What did I relate if not an anecdote? I think they key word here is "relate" (that which is "related" may often be other than what was intended to be related). > Combining psychedelics with meditation opens the very real risk of conditioning one's meditation practice to require psychedelics to have any efficacy. I can only speak for myself, but to me this implies (regardless of intent) substantial risk (it is at the least very ambiguous), as well as implies it has been ~proven that psychedelics can, at least in some cases, require subsequent usage to realize meditation benefits at all. It lacks epistemic humility. > When not taking psychedelics and meditating one will attempt to re-create or grasp after the pleasant sensations and thoughts previously experienced, which severs one from looking into the present moment as it is. This makes specific predictions of what people will do, with no qualifying words indicating uncertainty. > Take a look at shroomery.org for a large group of people's attitude towards psychedelics and meditation, larger than n=39. This seems suggestive of ~proof of the above speculative claims. Of course, this may all seem like excessive pedantry, but I happen to think pedantry is just one of many underappreciated and underused tools in humanity's toolbox.
- mistermann 7y ago
  A downvote is a convincing response.
  - omarchowdhury 7y ago
    To dispel paranoia, I'm not the one downvoting you: https://prnt.sc/ptuh4f https://prnt.sc/ptuh4f I accept your idea that I could have been more rigorous in my initial post. I'm also not against pedantry. I just didn't see it as a fruitful line of inquiry in this context, seeing as how my original post became uneditable. Otherwise I would have edited it to make it clear that YMMV and I'm in no position to make absolute statements about subjective realities, although I do think that this is obvious (since I was offering a possible risk, and not a guaranteed outcome) and not something that needed to be dissected.
    - mistermann 7y ago
      The ~tone of your statement combined with the complete lack of any information (in the message, or indeed existing within the current comprehensive knowledge of mankind itself) regarding the magnitude or likelihood of the negative event manifesting seems like an appropriate situation for dissection. Opinions presented as facts should always qualify for dissection in my opinion, if we had less of this, particularly in politics, perhaps people would be more comfortable with uncertainty and the unknown, and therefore less likely to fall on different sides of contentious arguments.
      - omarchowdhury 7y ago
        The tone is your own projection, as is the assertion that I presented an opinion as fact. I don't see evidence for those two things. Now, you're presenting your own opinion as fact. As for the following disingenuity: "the complete lack of any information existing within the current comprehensive knowledge of mankind itself," I pointed you to shroomery.org where you can find people's attitudes towards meditation and psychedelics and a cross section thereof that would corroborate my initial statements. It would be your own shortsightedness to not include these first hand reports within the "current comprehensive knowledge of mankind." And as someone who acknowledged that they derive signal from upvotes and downvotes, surely you would appreciate the notion that perhaps my premise is the top comment in this thread because people agree with it out of their own experience and rationality.

oarabbus_ 7y ago

There's plenty more who have found benefits from meditation and psychedelics.

omarchowdhury 7y ago
That's not being disputed. I'm one of those people. It's not an endeavor to take on willy nilly, hence pointing out risks.
- jaffau 7y ago
  >> I'm one of those people. Sorry brother, I had you all wrong. Meditation is often too broad and connotatively laden a term to have immediately productive cross discipline discussions about techniques and outcomes. We'd all benefit from an accessible but revised vocabulary for these matters.

jaffau 7y ago

So you're saying that one of the oldest and most popular message boards for psilocybin enthusiasts is frequented by tens of people who have different ideas about proportionate combinations of psychadelics and mental exercises than conventional buddhists?

mistermann 7y ago

> What did I relate if not an anecdote? I think they key word here is "relate" (that which is "related" may often be other than what was intended to be related). > Combining psychedelics with meditation opens the very real risk of conditioning one's meditation practice to require psychedelics to have any efficacy. I can only speak for myself, but to me this implies (regardless of intent) substantial risk (it is at the least very ambiguous), as well as implies it has been ~proven that psychedelics can, at least in some cases, require subsequent usage to realize meditation benefits at all. It lacks epistemic humility. > When not taking psychedelics and meditating one will attempt to re-create or grasp after the pleasant sensations and thoughts previously experienced, which severs one from looking into the present moment as it is. This makes specific predictions of what people will do, with no qualifying words indicating uncertainty. > Take a look at shroomery.org for a large group of people's attitude towards psychedelics and meditation, larger than n=39. This seems suggestive of ~proof of the above speculative claims. Of course, this may all seem like excessive pedantry, but I happen to think pedantry is just one of many underappreciated and underused tools in humanity's toolbox.

mistermann 7y ago
A downvote is a convincing response.
- omarchowdhury 7y ago
  To dispel paranoia, I'm not the one downvoting you: https://prnt.sc/ptuh4f https://prnt.sc/ptuh4f I accept your idea that I could have been more rigorous in my initial post. I'm also not against pedantry. I just didn't see it as a fruitful line of inquiry in this context, seeing as how my original post became uneditable. Otherwise I would have edited it to make it clear that YMMV and I'm in no position to make absolute statements about subjective realities, although I do think that this is obvious (since I was offering a possible risk, and not a guaranteed outcome) and not something that needed to be dissected.
  - mistermann 7y ago
    The ~tone of your statement combined with the complete lack of any information (in the message, or indeed existing within the current comprehensive knowledge of mankind itself) regarding the magnitude or likelihood of the negative event manifesting seems like an appropriate situation for dissection. Opinions presented as facts should always qualify for dissection in my opinion, if we had less of this, particularly in politics, perhaps people would be more comfortable with uncertainty and the unknown, and therefore less likely to fall on different sides of contentious arguments.
    - omarchowdhury 7y ago
      The tone is your own projection, as is the assertion that I presented an opinion as fact. I don't see evidence for those two things. Now, you're presenting your own opinion as fact. As for the following disingenuity: "the complete lack of any information existing within the current comprehensive knowledge of mankind itself," I pointed you to shroomery.org where you can find people's attitudes towards meditation and psychedelics and a cross section thereof that would corroborate my initial statements. It would be your own shortsightedness to not include these first hand reports within the "current comprehensive knowledge of mankind." And as someone who acknowledged that they derive signal from upvotes and downvotes, surely you would appreciate the notion that perhaps my premise is the top comment in this thread because people agree with it out of their own experience and rationality.