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> Combining psychedelics with meditation opens the very real risk of conditioning one's meditation practice to require psychedelics to have any efficacy. When n

> Combining psychedelics with meditation opens the very real risk of conditioning one's meditation practice to require psychedelics to have any efficacy. When not taking psychedelics and meditating one will attempt to re-create or grasp after the pleasant sensations and thoughts previously experienced, which severs one from looking into the present moment as it is. Sounds like something you _want_ to believe is true, but I'm not sure that it is. Is there even anecdotal evidence that this is a risk?

omarchowdhury 7y ago
What did I relate if not an anecdote? Take a look at shroomery.org for a large group of people's attitude towards psychedelics and meditation, larger than n=39.
- oarabbus_ 7y ago
  There's plenty more who have found benefits from meditation and psychedelics.
  - omarchowdhury 7y ago
    That's not being disputed. I'm one of those people. It's not an endeavor to take on willy nilly, hence pointing out risks.
    - jaffau 7y ago
      >> I'm one of those people. Sorry brother, I had you all wrong. Meditation is often too broad and connotatively laden a term to have immediately productive cross discipline discussions about techniques and outcomes. We'd all benefit from an accessible but revised vocabulary for these matters.
- jaffau 7y ago
  So you're saying that one of the oldest and most popular message boards for psilocybin enthusiasts is frequented by tens of people who have different ideas about proportionate combinations of psychadelics and mental exercises than conventional buddhists?
- mistermann 7y ago
  > What did I relate if not an anecdote? I think they key word here is "relate" (that which is "related" may often be other than what was intended to be related). > Combining psychedelics with meditation opens the very real risk of conditioning one's meditation practice to require psychedelics to have any efficacy. I can only speak for myself, but to me this implies (regardless of intent) substantial risk (it is at the least very ambiguous), as well as implies it has been ~proven that psychedelics can, at least in some cases, require subsequent usage to realize meditation benefits at all. It lacks epistemic humility. > When not taking psychedelics and meditating one will attempt to re-create or grasp after the pleasant sensations and thoughts previously experienced, which severs one from looking into the present moment as it is. This makes specific predictions of what people will do, with no qualifying words indicating uncertainty. > Take a look at shroomery.org for a large group of people's attitude towards psychedelics and meditation, larger than n=39. This seems suggestive of ~proof of the above speculative claims. Of course, this may all seem like excessive pedantry, but I happen to think pedantry is just one of many underappreciated and underused tools in humanity's toolbox.
  - mistermann 7y ago
    A downvote is a convincing response.
    - omarchowdhury 7y ago
      To dispel paranoia, I'm not the one downvoting you: https://prnt.sc/ptuh4f https://prnt.sc/ptuh4f I accept your idea that I could have been more rigorous in my initial post. I'm also not against pedantry. I just didn't see it as a fruitful line of inquiry in this context, seeing as how my original post became uneditable. Otherwise I would have edited it to make it clear that YMMV and I'm in no position to make absolute statements about subjective realities, although I do think that this is obvious (since I was offering a possible risk, and not a guaranteed outcome) and not something that needed to be dissected.
      - mistermann 7y ago
0xdeadbeefbabe 7y ago
"Meditation is the only intentional, systematic human activity which at bottom is about not trying to improve yourself or get anywhere" -Jon Kabat-Zinn I take that to mean that the risk of conditioning yourself to expect something is always present, though maybe it becomes insurmountable with psychedelics.

omarchowdhury 7y ago

What did I relate if not an anecdote? Take a look at shroomery.org for a large group of people's attitude towards psychedelics and meditation, larger than n=39.

oarabbus_ 7y ago
There's plenty more who have found benefits from meditation and psychedelics.
- omarchowdhury 7y ago
  That's not being disputed. I'm one of those people. It's not an endeavor to take on willy nilly, hence pointing out risks.
  - jaffau 7y ago
    >> I'm one of those people. Sorry brother, I had you all wrong. Meditation is often too broad and connotatively laden a term to have immediately productive cross discipline discussions about techniques and outcomes. We'd all benefit from an accessible but revised vocabulary for these matters.
jaffau 7y ago
So you're saying that one of the oldest and most popular message boards for psilocybin enthusiasts is frequented by tens of people who have different ideas about proportionate combinations of psychadelics and mental exercises than conventional buddhists?
mistermann 7y ago
> What did I relate if not an anecdote? I think they key word here is "relate" (that which is "related" may often be other than what was intended to be related). > Combining psychedelics with meditation opens the very real risk of conditioning one's meditation practice to require psychedelics to have any efficacy. I can only speak for myself, but to me this implies (regardless of intent) substantial risk (it is at the least very ambiguous), as well as implies it has been ~proven that psychedelics can, at least in some cases, require subsequent usage to realize meditation benefits at all. It lacks epistemic humility. > When not taking psychedelics and meditating one will attempt to re-create or grasp after the pleasant sensations and thoughts previously experienced, which severs one from looking into the present moment as it is. This makes specific predictions of what people will do, with no qualifying words indicating uncertainty. > Take a look at shroomery.org for a large group of people's attitude towards psychedelics and meditation, larger than n=39. This seems suggestive of ~proof of the above speculative claims. Of course, this may all seem like excessive pedantry, but I happen to think pedantry is just one of many underappreciated and underused tools in humanity's toolbox.
- mistermann 7y ago
  A downvote is a convincing response.
  - omarchowdhury 7y ago
    To dispel paranoia, I'm not the one downvoting you: https://prnt.sc/ptuh4f https://prnt.sc/ptuh4f I accept your idea that I could have been more rigorous in my initial post. I'm also not against pedantry. I just didn't see it as a fruitful line of inquiry in this context, seeing as how my original post became uneditable. Otherwise I would have edited it to make it clear that YMMV and I'm in no position to make absolute statements about subjective realities, although I do think that this is obvious (since I was offering a possible risk, and not a guaranteed outcome) and not something that needed to be dissected.
    - mistermann 7y ago

0xdeadbeefbabe 7y ago

"Meditation is the only intentional, systematic human activity which at bottom is about not trying to improve yourself or get anywhere" -Jon Kabat-Zinn I take that to mean that the risk of conditioning yourself to expect something is always present, though maybe it becomes insurmountable with psychedelics.