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There are so many energy storage devices besides batteries. Yes, they’re confident for storing electric charge, but (as I mentioned elsewhere) pumping water up

by qubex 7y ago

There are so many energy storage devices besides batteries. Yes, they’re confident for storing electric charge, but (as I mentioned elsewhere) pumping water up into a reservoir when energy is plentiful and using it to drive turbines and generators is another large-scale energy storage system, as is melting salts, as is driving compressors to pressurise large cambers and then drive them in reverse when power dips, as is spinning up flywheels...

Gibbon1 7y ago
Completely boring thermal storage schemes give you 40-70% round trip energy return. As long as you can sell the stored power for 1.5 to 2.5 times more than you paid for it then it's economically feasible. Problem with the technology is a) not viable in the current market. b) It's a mind numbingly boring idea. c) There is no 'disruption' potential here. All the companies that can build this at scale are huge established multi-nationals like General Electric.
steve19 7y ago
Pumped storage requires very specific geography and how much energy can be stored is very dependant on height differences. It is also only 70-80% efficient. Compressed-air energy storage also requires specific geography. Molten salt is not going to be a great idea in places that have lots of wind, but not a lot of sun (UK in winter for example). To replace strip mined coal burning generators and fracked gas we need a mix of just about everything.
- dharma1 7y ago
  I agree it's going to be a combination of solutions with energy storage, depending on what you need. Batteries are good for short-term, portable storage. The other solutions you mentioned may be better for long-term, non-portable storage. I also think we can get more mileage out of chemical fuels produced with renewables - ammonia, hydrogen. https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/siemens-ammonia-hydrogen-energy-storage https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/siemens-ammonia... https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/03/new-fuel-cell-could-help-fix-renewable-energy-storage-problem https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/03/new-fuel-cell-could-...
  - sunstone 7y ago
    It may be that federated electric vehicle batteries become all the storage we need as long as power grids are integrated more broadly.

by qubex 7y ago

Gibbon1 7y ago

Completely boring thermal storage schemes give you 40-70% round trip energy return. As long as you can sell the stored power for 1.5 to 2.5 times more than you paid for it then it's economically feasible. Problem with the technology is a) not viable in the current market. b) It's a mind numbingly boring idea. c) There is no 'disruption' potential here. All the companies that can build this at scale are huge established multi-nationals like General Electric.

steve19 7y ago

Pumped storage requires very specific geography and how much energy can be stored is very dependant on height differences. It is also only 70-80% efficient. Compressed-air energy storage also requires specific geography. Molten salt is not going to be a great idea in places that have lots of wind, but not a lot of sun (UK in winter for example). To replace strip mined coal burning generators and fracked gas we need a mix of just about everything.

dharma1 7y ago
I agree it's going to be a combination of solutions with energy storage, depending on what you need. Batteries are good for short-term, portable storage. The other solutions you mentioned may be better for long-term, non-portable storage. I also think we can get more mileage out of chemical fuels produced with renewables - ammonia, hydrogen. https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/siemens-ammonia-hydrogen-energy-storage https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/siemens-ammonia... https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/03/new-fuel-cell-could-help-fix-renewable-energy-storage-problem https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/03/new-fuel-cell-could-...
- sunstone 7y ago
  It may be that federated electric vehicle batteries become all the storage we need as long as power grids are integrated more broadly.