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Are you sure you're not confusing people abusing party drugs with people meditating while under psychedelics?

omarchowdhury 7y ago
Take a look at the message board shroomery.org to see a large group's (more than n=39) attitude toward meditation and psychedelics. Whether at a party or on the cushion, people are chasing after experiences, which don't last or are as beneficial as developing qualities.
- vanderZwan 7y ago
  Have you heard of the concept of selection bias? If someone would do a meditative retreat combined with the influence of psilocybin, receive the benefits from that, and never feel the need to use psilocybin again you will not find them on shroomery.org. The only people you will find there are people with a sustained interest in doing psychedelic drugs. That's a bit of a circular argument then. There is no reason to believe that such a community of people is representative of the general population or the effects that psychedelics would have on them when combined with meditation and the guidance of one or more therapists.
  - omarchowdhury 7y ago
    You don't have to be patronizing. Selection bias is besides the point. My writing a common risk is to warn people from going towards the extreme of becoming psychedelic enthusiasts (abusers would be more apt). Your "general population" who are given psychedelics and meditation runs the risk of falling into that extreme (it is opening pandora's box), and their therapist isn't going to be there to babysit them all the time, this much is evident from prescription drug abuse.
    - olyjohn 7y ago
      I'm not an expert on drugs, but comparing psychedelics to any kind of prescription seems... I dunno, like not a very good comparison. Are there any psychedelics that are openly prescribed the way other "prescription drugs" are? I mean just saying "Abuse of prescription drugs" is such an ambiguous thing. If you're referring to opioids, etc that have an extreme physically addictive effect, that's not at all like how psychedelics work.
      - omarchowdhury 7y ago
        Prescription drugs were being compared in context of being dispensed under guidance of a licensed professional. The licensed professional isn't always going to be around to make sure the patient doesn't start down the path of substance abuse, and such abuse potentials are not limited to drugs that are by and by chemically addictive.
    - Covzire 7y ago
      What do you base your views on? Reading reports on a forum? You're point seems valid enough, but I get the feeling there's a lot of nuance your comments are paving over. For one, any research I ever did on them seem to indicate they're very "anti-party" and those taking them did so for very specific self-improvement reasons.
    - thatcat 7y ago
      It's hard to abuse psilocybin bc there is a limitation to the frequency that a dose will be effective. If you take it two days in a row, there will be little to no effect on the second day. The longer you wait, the more effect it can have - leading even enthusiasts to wait.
      - euinq 7y ago
        In addition to rapid tolerance buildup (which in a dopaminergic drug would be a danger of rapid progression to overdose), in my experience psilocybin and other psychedelic tryptamines have an inherent moderating effect in many people. I don't really feel like having psychedelic experiences often; it's just not a useful state of being most of the time, and it's not so neurochemically rewarding and physically comfortable that it's highly likely for addiction to develop. It's far less likely to become addicted to psilocybin than THC, alcohol, or caffeine. I do agree that always combining meditation with any substance could lead to a dependence on that substance to experience the deepest meditative states. However, used once in a while (which is the most I really want psychedelics anyway), I can agree with the findings in this paper, the experience sticks with you and can be remembered. pazimzadeh's analogy is spot on. > Right. If you're trying to metaphorically reach the peak of a mountain, psychedelics are like a helicopter that lets you fly around, find the path and even reach the top. > It's possible that you'll grow to rely on the helicopter to climb the mountain, but hopefully what you take away from it is that there is in fact a path (or accept that there's not - and you might has well climb a different mountain).
      - wsc981 7y ago
        I'd just like to add, back when I was a bit younger (perhaps 23 years old or so), I used to take magic mushrooms with my friends once every four months or so. It was not something I (and I imagine my friends) took lightly. I made sure there weren't any big things happening that weekend, no stress, etc... In that way it wasn't even very feasible to take these shrooms more often, often things like work would get in the way. In total I might have taken magic mushrooms maybe 10 times. Now I don't really feel the need to anymore, but I think it could be interesting to try some time in the future with my girlfriend. Most of my friends don't use psychedelics in any way anymore. Perhaps in part because many friends are starting families now and it's hard to find the time when having a girlfriend and/or children, etc...
    - vanderZwan 7y ago
      > My writing a common risk is to warn people from going towards the extreme of becoming psychedelic enthusiasts (abusers would be more apt). That is a very different claim than: > Combining psychedelics with meditation opens the very real risk of conditioning one's meditation practice to require psychedelics to have any efficacy. ... which is what the discussion started with.
      - omarchowdhury 7y ago
        The two premises are interdependent.
cc81 7y ago
There is a lot of what I feel is rose colored glasses when it comes to psychedelics and that people think they must have had some breakthrough or being able to think differently is just good for them. I'm not going to argue that some people are not helped and I think there is a lot of interesting research. But there seems to be a lot of people who think there must be some deeper meaning when you use psychedelics so they sit down and try and think about negative things to work them through, get stressed out and starting to spiral in a negative thought loop that is not really based in reality (like "my friends do not really like me, I suck"). Then they have a horrible trip and really did not learn from it because, your brain is often pretty stupid on psychedelics, but frame it as a positive experience on forums. It would be like people not handling alcohol saying "Yeah, sure I really went crazy and fought my dad, destroyed my car and ended up crying in a bush, but I really learned something about myself". No, the drugs made your brain think in a shitty way. Maybe I'm just cynical but I'd say don't try to get deep with psychedelics until you are really used to them. Have fun and do the "abusing party drugs" part or watch a funny movie instead.
- rewgs 7y ago
  This is not true, in my experience. The best way I can describe shrooms is “they show you what you need to see at that moment in your life,” and sometimes the “bad trip” is exactly what the doctor ordered. I have literally only ever seen “bad trips” be useful and transformative for people. I do agree that you shouldn’t ascribe too much weight to certain things, but personally I’d say this is applicable more to specific spiritual conclusions, “seeing god,” etc. No, you didn’t see god, you were taking a hallucinogen and were high as balls.
- armitron 7y ago
  Terrible advice on every possible level. You don’t need to “really get used” to psychedelics by abusing them at parties in order to use them effectively. You just need to learn proper technique. You won’t learn that at parties or funny movies. Steps for productive psychedelic sessions: Choose a calm, quiet, pleasant environment. Have someone you absolutely trust present. No other distractions. Fewer people the better, ideally only one other. Lie down. If psilocybin makes you nauseous, you may want to purge if you can’t handle it. Nausea will die down as the trip builds up. Close your eyes. Wear a sleep mask if you want. Listen to calming, ambient music or calming white noise, headphones are best. Dive in. I repeat, dive in. Focus should be inside not outside. After the trip, write everything down.

Take a look at the message board shroomery.org to see a large group's (more than n=39) attitude toward meditation and psychedelics. Whether at a party or on the cushion, people are chasing after experiences, which don't last or are as beneficial as developing qualities.

vanderZwan 7y ago
Have you heard of the concept of selection bias? If someone would do a meditative retreat combined with the influence of psilocybin, receive the benefits from that, and never feel the need to use psilocybin again you will not find them on shroomery.org. The only people you will find there are people with a sustained interest in doing psychedelic drugs. That's a bit of a circular argument then. There is no reason to believe that such a community of people is representative of the general population or the effects that psychedelics would have on them when combined with meditation and the guidance of one or more therapists.
- omarchowdhury 7y ago
  You don't have to be patronizing. Selection bias is besides the point. My writing a common risk is to warn people from going towards the extreme of becoming psychedelic enthusiasts (abusers would be more apt). Your "general population" who are given psychedelics and meditation runs the risk of falling into that extreme (it is opening pandora's box), and their therapist isn't going to be there to babysit them all the time, this much is evident from prescription drug abuse.
  - olyjohn 7y ago
    I'm not an expert on drugs, but comparing psychedelics to any kind of prescription seems... I dunno, like not a very good comparison. Are there any psychedelics that are openly prescribed the way other "prescription drugs" are? I mean just saying "Abuse of prescription drugs" is such an ambiguous thing. If you're referring to opioids, etc that have an extreme physically addictive effect, that's not at all like how psychedelics work.
    - omarchowdhury 7y ago
      Prescription drugs were being compared in context of being dispensed under guidance of a licensed professional. The licensed professional isn't always going to be around to make sure the patient doesn't start down the path of substance abuse, and such abuse potentials are not limited to drugs that are by and by chemically addictive.
  - Covzire 7y ago
    What do you base your views on? Reading reports on a forum? You're point seems valid enough, but I get the feeling there's a lot of nuance your comments are paving over. For one, any research I ever did on them seem to indicate they're very "anti-party" and those taking them did so for very specific self-improvement reasons.
  - thatcat 7y ago
    It's hard to abuse psilocybin bc there is a limitation to the frequency that a dose will be effective. If you take it two days in a row, there will be little to no effect on the second day. The longer you wait, the more effect it can have - leading even enthusiasts to wait.
    - euinq 7y ago
      In addition to rapid tolerance buildup (which in a dopaminergic drug would be a danger of rapid progression to overdose), in my experience psilocybin and other psychedelic tryptamines have an inherent moderating effect in many people. I don't really feel like having psychedelic experiences often; it's just not a useful state of being most of the time, and it's not so neurochemically rewarding and physically comfortable that it's highly likely for addiction to develop. It's far less likely to become addicted to psilocybin than THC, alcohol, or caffeine. I do agree that always combining meditation with any substance could lead to a dependence on that substance to experience the deepest meditative states. However, used once in a while (which is the most I really want psychedelics anyway), I can agree with the findings in this paper, the experience sticks with you and can be remembered. pazimzadeh's analogy is spot on. > Right. If you're trying to metaphorically reach the peak of a mountain, psychedelics are like a helicopter that lets you fly around, find the path and even reach the top. > It's possible that you'll grow to rely on the helicopter to climb the mountain, but hopefully what you take away from it is that there is in fact a path (or accept that there's not - and you might has well climb a different mountain).
    - wsc981 7y ago
      I'd just like to add, back when I was a bit younger (perhaps 23 years old or so), I used to take magic mushrooms with my friends once every four months or so. It was not something I (and I imagine my friends) took lightly. I made sure there weren't any big things happening that weekend, no stress, etc... In that way it wasn't even very feasible to take these shrooms more often, often things like work would get in the way. In total I might have taken magic mushrooms maybe 10 times. Now I don't really feel the need to anymore, but I think it could be interesting to try some time in the future with my girlfriend. Most of my friends don't use psychedelics in any way anymore. Perhaps in part because many friends are starting families now and it's hard to find the time when having a girlfriend and/or children, etc...
  - vanderZwan 7y ago
    > My writing a common risk is to warn people from going towards the extreme of becoming psychedelic enthusiasts (abusers would be more apt). That is a very different claim than: > Combining psychedelics with meditation opens the very real risk of conditioning one's meditation practice to require psychedelics to have any efficacy. ... which is what the discussion started with.
    - omarchowdhury 7y ago
      The two premises are interdependent.

cc81 7y ago

There is a lot of what I feel is rose colored glasses when it comes to psychedelics and that people think they must have had some breakthrough or being able to think differently is just good for them. I'm not going to argue that some people are not helped and I think there is a lot of interesting research. But there seems to be a lot of people who think there must be some deeper meaning when you use psychedelics so they sit down and try and think about negative things to work them through, get stressed out and starting to spiral in a negative thought loop that is not really based in reality (like "my friends do not really like me, I suck"). Then they have a horrible trip and really did not learn from it because, your brain is often pretty stupid on psychedelics, but frame it as a positive experience on forums. It would be like people not handling alcohol saying "Yeah, sure I really went crazy and fought my dad, destroyed my car and ended up crying in a bush, but I really learned something about myself". No, the drugs made your brain think in a shitty way. Maybe I'm just cynical but I'd say don't try to get deep with psychedelics until you are really used to them. Have fun and do the "abusing party drugs" part or watch a funny movie instead.

rewgs 7y ago
This is not true, in my experience. The best way I can describe shrooms is “they show you what you need to see at that moment in your life,” and sometimes the “bad trip” is exactly what the doctor ordered. I have literally only ever seen “bad trips” be useful and transformative for people. I do agree that you shouldn’t ascribe too much weight to certain things, but personally I’d say this is applicable more to specific spiritual conclusions, “seeing god,” etc. No, you didn’t see god, you were taking a hallucinogen and were high as balls.
armitron 7y ago
Terrible advice on every possible level. You don’t need to “really get used” to psychedelics by abusing them at parties in order to use them effectively. You just need to learn proper technique. You won’t learn that at parties or funny movies. Steps for productive psychedelic sessions: Choose a calm, quiet, pleasant environment. Have someone you absolutely trust present. No other distractions. Fewer people the better, ideally only one other. Lie down. If psilocybin makes you nauseous, you may want to purge if you can’t handle it. Nausea will die down as the trip builds up. Close your eyes. Wear a sleep mask if you want. Listen to calming, ambient music or calming white noise, headphones are best. Dive in. I repeat, dive in. Focus should be inside not outside. After the trip, write everything down.