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> Or it may aid in processing traumas that were blockades to meditation, Or it may aid in giving one even more trauma. The outcome differs from person to perso

> Or it may aid in processing traumas that were blockades to meditation, Or it may aid in giving one even more trauma. The outcome differs from person to person, I'm only offering my anecdotes based on my experience and people I know who dabble in psychedelics and meditation. The risk can be distilled to the simple idea of a crutch. Of course, not everyone will take it as a crutch. > But FWIW, this research seems to suggest one does not need to keep using psilocybin to have its long-lasting beneficial effects: And I relate this risk precisely because, in my opinion, most or many people will not deploy the same discipline in using psychedelics as conducted in the study or even use the psychedelics for the same purposes as the study. Once faced with the boredom of the non-psychedelic state of mind, people get agitated. But it's precisely facing this boredom and this agitation which will help them grow -- boredom and agitation are as much apart of reality and the human experience as is excitement and ecstasy.

vanderZwan 7y ago
Are you sure you're not confusing people abusing party drugs with people meditating while under psychedelics?
- omarchowdhury 7y ago
  Take a look at the message board shroomery.org to see a large group's (more than n=39) attitude toward meditation and psychedelics. Whether at a party or on the cushion, people are chasing after experiences, which don't last or are as beneficial as developing qualities.
  - vanderZwan 7y ago
    Have you heard of the concept of selection bias? If someone would do a meditative retreat combined with the influence of psilocybin, receive the benefits from that, and never feel the need to use psilocybin again you will not find them on shroomery.org. The only people you will find there are people with a sustained interest in doing psychedelic drugs. That's a bit of a circular argument then. There is no reason to believe that such a community of people is representative of the general population or the effects that psychedelics would have on them when combined with meditation and the guidance of one or more therapists.
    - omarchowdhury 7y ago
      You don't have to be patronizing. Selection bias is besides the point. My writing a common risk is to warn people from going towards the extreme of becoming psychedelic enthusiasts (abusers would be more apt). Your "general population" who are given psychedelics and meditation runs the risk of falling into that extreme (it is opening pandora's box), and their therapist isn't going to be there to babysit them all the time, this much is evident from prescription drug abuse.
      - olyjohn 7y ago
        I'm not an expert on drugs, but comparing psychedelics to any kind of prescription seems... I dunno, like not a very good comparison. Are there any psychedelics that are openly prescribed the way other "prescription drugs" are? I mean just saying "Abuse of prescription drugs" is such an ambiguous thing. If you're referring to opioids, etc that have an extreme physically addictive effect, that's not at all like how psychedelics work.
        omarchowdhury 7y ago
        Prescription drugs were being compared in context of being dispensed under guidance of a licensed professional. The licensed professional isn't always going to be around to make sure the patient doesn't start down the path of substance abuse, and such abuse potentials are not limited to drugs that are by and by chemically addictive.
      - Covzire 7y ago
        What do you base your views on? Reading reports on a forum? You're point seems valid enough, but I get the feeling there's a lot of nuance your comments are paving over. For one, any research I ever did on them seem to indicate they're very "anti-party" and those taking them did so for very specific self-improvement reasons.
      - thatcat 7y ago
        It's hard to abuse psilocybin bc there is a limitation to the frequency that a dose will be effective. If you take it two days in a row, there will be little to no effect on the second day. The longer you wait, the more effect it can have - leading even enthusiasts to wait.
- cc81 7y ago
  There is a lot of what I feel is rose colored glasses when it comes to psychedelics and that people think they must have had some breakthrough or being able to think differently is just good for them. I'm not going to argue that some people are not helped and I think there is a lot of interesting research. But there seems to be a lot of people who think there must be some deeper meaning when you use psychedelics so they sit down and try and think about negative things to work them through, get stressed out and starting to spiral in a negative thought loop that is not really based in reality (like "my friends do not really like me, I suck"). Then they have a horrible trip and really did not learn from it because, your brain is often pretty stupid on psychedelics, but frame it as a positive experience on forums. It would be like people not handling alcohol saying "Yeah, sure I really went crazy and fought my dad, destroyed my car and ended up crying in a bush, but I really learned something about myself". No, the drugs made your brain think in a shitty way. Maybe I'm just cynical but I'd say don't try to get deep with psychedelics until you are really used to them. Have fun and do the "abusing party drugs" part or watch a funny movie instead.
  - rewgs 7y ago
    This is not true, in my experience. The best way I can describe shrooms is “they show you what you need to see at that moment in your life,” and sometimes the “bad trip” is exactly what the doctor ordered. I have literally only ever seen “bad trips” be useful and transformative for people. I do agree that you shouldn’t ascribe too much weight to certain things, but personally I’d say this is applicable more to specific spiritual conclusions, “seeing god,” etc. No, you didn’t see god, you were taking a hallucinogen and were high as balls.
  - armitron 7y ago
    Terrible advice on every possible level. You don’t need to “really get used” to psychedelics by abusing them at parties in order to use them effectively. You just need to learn proper technique. You won’t learn that at parties or funny movies. Steps for productive psychedelic sessions: Choose a calm, quiet, pleasant environment. Have someone you absolutely trust present. No other distractions. Fewer people the better, ideally only one other. Lie down. If psilocybin makes you nauseous, you may want to purge if you can’t handle it. Nausea will die down as the trip builds up. Close your eyes. Wear a sleep mask if you want. Listen to calming, ambient music or calming white noise, headphones are best. Dive in. I repeat, dive in. Focus should be inside not outside. After the trip, write everything down.
mistermann 7y ago
> Once faced with the boredom of the non-psychedelic state of mind, people get agitated. The overwhelming majority of anecdotal stories I've read suggest the exact opposite, in that people perceive a lasting (for some time at least) sense of peace, not agitation. Or perhaps by agitation you were referring to desire to re-experience the psychedelic experience rather than remaining content with peacefulness. I'd say this is quite common, and I can appreciate that a disciplined meditation practice is a fine idea, but I've yet to see any particularly compelling reason to believe a disciplined meditation practice is the only answer. My guess at it is that for most (but not necessarily all) people: (Disciplined psychedelic practice + Disciplined meditation practice) > (Disciplined psychedelic practice + decent meditation practice) > Disciplined meditation practice > Disciplined psychedelic practice > Undisciplined psychedelic or meditation practice But this is just a guess. I feel quite certain no one actually knows the proper answer to the question, but there's certainly no shortage of people who think they do.....which is kind of at the heart of what this whole business is all about, as far as I can tell.
rolltiide 7y ago
One thing that annoys me about psychadelic discussion is how dismissive people are. Its predictable: Have a bad experience? “Whaat no way dude, you must have taken something else or you were predisposed to schizophrenia you should have predicted that and checked your family history and genetics first! This experience is totally invalid to us and anyone considering using our favorite psychadelic” Develop schizophrenia? “[abbreviated version of the same response]” Have an interesting idea? “Just an anecdote! More research necessary”
- ditonal 7y ago
  This is totally true, not sure why it's downvoted. Psychedelic enthusiasts will often say "oh well that person who had a bad experience was predisposed and shouldn't have taken it." When there was literally no way of telling that the person was predisposed until they took the drug. You can be a fairly stable person but be predisposed to psychosis when you take psychedelic, but have no idea that's the case until you take the psychedelics. Maybe you family history is clear because nobody experimented with psychedelics and thus never triggered that predisposition, or maybe you just don't learn about every instance of psychosis in your family tree. If you try to bring this up to psychedelic enthusiasts they get defensive even though they're obviously in the wrong.
  - RandomTisk 7y ago
    Approximately what percent of the average population is predisposed to psychosis?
  - armitron 7y ago
    All breakthrough psychedelic experiences are serious psychotic events. Experienced psychonauts not only understand that psychosis can happen to anyone - regardless of history - but know how valuable it can be. Psychosis valuable? The difference between clinical psychosis and a psychedelic breakthrough experience is that the latter is integrated. The Psychonaut finds a way to make it part of his psyche and thus neutralize the dissonance. Those who talk about predisposition really have no clue regarding proper psychedelic use. Psychosis is the whole point. But, taking place inside a framework that allows for integration. There is a reason shamans have rituals.
yowlingcat 7y ago
What do you think happens when you dream? Would you believe prior art if it told you that your brain secretes DMT? Why do you think that occurs?

vanderZwan 7y ago

Are you sure you're not confusing people abusing party drugs with people meditating while under psychedelics?

omarchowdhury 7y ago
Take a look at the message board shroomery.org to see a large group's (more than n=39) attitude toward meditation and psychedelics. Whether at a party or on the cushion, people are chasing after experiences, which don't last or are as beneficial as developing qualities.
- vanderZwan 7y ago
  Have you heard of the concept of selection bias? If someone would do a meditative retreat combined with the influence of psilocybin, receive the benefits from that, and never feel the need to use psilocybin again you will not find them on shroomery.org. The only people you will find there are people with a sustained interest in doing psychedelic drugs. That's a bit of a circular argument then. There is no reason to believe that such a community of people is representative of the general population or the effects that psychedelics would have on them when combined with meditation and the guidance of one or more therapists.
  - omarchowdhury 7y ago
    You don't have to be patronizing. Selection bias is besides the point. My writing a common risk is to warn people from going towards the extreme of becoming psychedelic enthusiasts (abusers would be more apt). Your "general population" who are given psychedelics and meditation runs the risk of falling into that extreme (it is opening pandora's box), and their therapist isn't going to be there to babysit them all the time, this much is evident from prescription drug abuse.
    - olyjohn 7y ago
      I'm not an expert on drugs, but comparing psychedelics to any kind of prescription seems... I dunno, like not a very good comparison. Are there any psychedelics that are openly prescribed the way other "prescription drugs" are? I mean just saying "Abuse of prescription drugs" is such an ambiguous thing. If you're referring to opioids, etc that have an extreme physically addictive effect, that's not at all like how psychedelics work.
      - omarchowdhury 7y ago
        Prescription drugs were being compared in context of being dispensed under guidance of a licensed professional. The licensed professional isn't always going to be around to make sure the patient doesn't start down the path of substance abuse, and such abuse potentials are not limited to drugs that are by and by chemically addictive.
    - Covzire 7y ago
      What do you base your views on? Reading reports on a forum? You're point seems valid enough, but I get the feeling there's a lot of nuance your comments are paving over. For one, any research I ever did on them seem to indicate they're very "anti-party" and those taking them did so for very specific self-improvement reasons.
    - thatcat 7y ago
      It's hard to abuse psilocybin bc there is a limitation to the frequency that a dose will be effective. If you take it two days in a row, there will be little to no effect on the second day. The longer you wait, the more effect it can have - leading even enthusiasts to wait.
cc81 7y ago
There is a lot of what I feel is rose colored glasses when it comes to psychedelics and that people think they must have had some breakthrough or being able to think differently is just good for them. I'm not going to argue that some people are not helped and I think there is a lot of interesting research. But there seems to be a lot of people who think there must be some deeper meaning when you use psychedelics so they sit down and try and think about negative things to work them through, get stressed out and starting to spiral in a negative thought loop that is not really based in reality (like "my friends do not really like me, I suck"). Then they have a horrible trip and really did not learn from it because, your brain is often pretty stupid on psychedelics, but frame it as a positive experience on forums. It would be like people not handling alcohol saying "Yeah, sure I really went crazy and fought my dad, destroyed my car and ended up crying in a bush, but I really learned something about myself". No, the drugs made your brain think in a shitty way. Maybe I'm just cynical but I'd say don't try to get deep with psychedelics until you are really used to them. Have fun and do the "abusing party drugs" part or watch a funny movie instead.
- rewgs 7y ago
  This is not true, in my experience. The best way I can describe shrooms is “they show you what you need to see at that moment in your life,” and sometimes the “bad trip” is exactly what the doctor ordered. I have literally only ever seen “bad trips” be useful and transformative for people. I do agree that you shouldn’t ascribe too much weight to certain things, but personally I’d say this is applicable more to specific spiritual conclusions, “seeing god,” etc. No, you didn’t see god, you were taking a hallucinogen and were high as balls.
- armitron 7y ago
  Terrible advice on every possible level. You don’t need to “really get used” to psychedelics by abusing them at parties in order to use them effectively. You just need to learn proper technique. You won’t learn that at parties or funny movies. Steps for productive psychedelic sessions: Choose a calm, quiet, pleasant environment. Have someone you absolutely trust present. No other distractions. Fewer people the better, ideally only one other. Lie down. If psilocybin makes you nauseous, you may want to purge if you can’t handle it. Nausea will die down as the trip builds up. Close your eyes. Wear a sleep mask if you want. Listen to calming, ambient music or calming white noise, headphones are best. Dive in. I repeat, dive in. Focus should be inside not outside. After the trip, write everything down.

mistermann 7y ago

> Once faced with the boredom of the non-psychedelic state of mind, people get agitated. The overwhelming majority of anecdotal stories I've read suggest the exact opposite, in that people perceive a lasting (for some time at least) sense of peace, not agitation. Or perhaps by agitation you were referring to desire to re-experience the psychedelic experience rather than remaining content with peacefulness. I'd say this is quite common, and I can appreciate that a disciplined meditation practice is a fine idea, but I've yet to see any particularly compelling reason to believe a disciplined meditation practice is the only answer. My guess at it is that for most (but not necessarily all) people: (Disciplined psychedelic practice + Disciplined meditation practice) > (Disciplined psychedelic practice + decent meditation practice) > Disciplined meditation practice > Disciplined psychedelic practice > Undisciplined psychedelic or meditation practice But this is just a guess. I feel quite certain no one actually knows the proper answer to the question, but there's certainly no shortage of people who think they do.....which is kind of at the heart of what this whole business is all about, as far as I can tell.

rolltiide 7y ago

One thing that annoys me about psychadelic discussion is how dismissive people are. Its predictable: Have a bad experience? “Whaat no way dude, you must have taken something else or you were predisposed to schizophrenia you should have predicted that and checked your family history and genetics first! This experience is totally invalid to us and anyone considering using our favorite psychadelic” Develop schizophrenia? “[abbreviated version of the same response]” Have an interesting idea? “Just an anecdote! More research necessary”

ditonal 7y ago
This is totally true, not sure why it's downvoted. Psychedelic enthusiasts will often say "oh well that person who had a bad experience was predisposed and shouldn't have taken it." When there was literally no way of telling that the person was predisposed until they took the drug. You can be a fairly stable person but be predisposed to psychosis when you take psychedelic, but have no idea that's the case until you take the psychedelics. Maybe you family history is clear because nobody experimented with psychedelics and thus never triggered that predisposition, or maybe you just don't learn about every instance of psychosis in your family tree. If you try to bring this up to psychedelic enthusiasts they get defensive even though they're obviously in the wrong.
- RandomTisk 7y ago
  Approximately what percent of the average population is predisposed to psychosis?
- armitron 7y ago
  All breakthrough psychedelic experiences are serious psychotic events. Experienced psychonauts not only understand that psychosis can happen to anyone - regardless of history - but know how valuable it can be. Psychosis valuable? The difference between clinical psychosis and a psychedelic breakthrough experience is that the latter is integrated. The Psychonaut finds a way to make it part of his psyche and thus neutralize the dissonance. Those who talk about predisposition really have no clue regarding proper psychedelic use. Psychosis is the whole point. But, taking place inside a framework that allows for integration. There is a reason shamans have rituals.

yowlingcat 7y ago

What do you think happens when you dream? Would you believe prior art if it told you that your brain secretes DMT? Why do you think that occurs?