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> Combining psychedelics with meditation opens the very real risk of conditioning one's meditation practice to require psychedelics to have any efficacy. Or it

> Combining psychedelics with meditation opens the very real risk of conditioning one's meditation practice to require psychedelics to have any efficacy. Or it may aid in processing traumas that were blockades to meditation, with a net result of it being easier to do meditation practice afterwards even without psychedelics. It's all speculation until further research is done into how all this works exactly, no? But FWIW, this research seems to suggest one does not need to keep using psilocybin to have its long-lasting beneficial effects: > Compared with placebo, psilocybin enhanced post-intervention mindfulness and produced larger positive changes in psychosocial functioning at a 4-month follow-up, which were corroborated by external ratings, and associated with magnitude of acute self-dissolution experience

omarchowdhury 7y ago
> Or it may aid in processing traumas that were blockades to meditation, Or it may aid in giving one even more trauma. The outcome differs from person to person, I'm only offering my anecdotes based on my experience and people I know who dabble in psychedelics and meditation. The risk can be distilled to the simple idea of a crutch. Of course, not everyone will take it as a crutch. > But FWIW, this research seems to suggest one does not need to keep using psilocybin to have its long-lasting beneficial effects: And I relate this risk precisely because, in my opinion, most or many people will not deploy the same discipline in using psychedelics as conducted in the study or even use the psychedelics for the same purposes as the study. Once faced with the boredom of the non-psychedelic state of mind, people get agitated. But it's precisely facing this boredom and this agitation which will help them grow -- boredom and agitation are as much apart of reality and the human experience as is excitement and ecstasy.
- vanderZwan 7y ago
  Are you sure you're not confusing people abusing party drugs with people meditating while under psychedelics?
  - omarchowdhury 7y ago
    Take a look at the message board shroomery.org to see a large group's (more than n=39) attitude toward meditation and psychedelics. Whether at a party or on the cushion, people are chasing after experiences, which don't last or are as beneficial as developing qualities.
    - vanderZwan 7y ago
      Have you heard of the concept of selection bias? If someone would do a meditative retreat combined with the influence of psilocybin, receive the benefits from that, and never feel the need to use psilocybin again you will not find them on shroomery.org. The only people you will find there are people with a sustained interest in doing psychedelic drugs. That's a bit of a circular argument then. There is no reason to believe that such a community of people is representative of the general population or the effects that psychedelics would have on them when combined with meditation and the guidance of one or more therapists.
      - omarchowdhury 7y ago
        You don't have to be patronizing. Selection bias is besides the point. My writing a common risk is to warn people from going towards the extreme of becoming psychedelic enthusiasts (abusers would be more apt). Your "general population" who are given psychedelics and meditation runs the risk of falling into that extreme (it is opening pandora's box), and their therapist isn't going to be there to babysit them all the time, this much is evident from prescription drug abuse.
        olyjohn 7y ago
        I'm not an expert on drugs, but comparing psychedelics to any kind of prescription seems... I dunno, like not a very good comparison. Are there any psychedelics that are openly prescribed the way other "prescription drugs" are? I mean just saying "Abuse of prescription drugs" is such an ambiguous thing. If you're referring to opioids, etc that have an extreme physically addictive effect, that's not at all like how psychedelics work.
- mistermann 7y ago
  > Once faced with the boredom of the non-psychedelic state of mind, people get agitated. The overwhelming majority of anecdotal stories I've read suggest the exact opposite, in that people perceive a lasting (for some time at least) sense of peace, not agitation. Or perhaps by agitation you were referring to desire to re-experience the psychedelic experience rather than remaining content with peacefulness. I'd say this is quite common, and I can appreciate that a disciplined meditation practice is a fine idea, but I've yet to see any particularly compelling reason to believe a disciplined meditation practice is the only answer. My guess at it is that for most (but not necessarily all) people: (Disciplined psychedelic practice + Disciplined meditation practice) > (Disciplined psychedelic practice + decent meditation practice) > Disciplined meditation practice > Disciplined psychedelic practice > Undisciplined psychedelic or meditation practice But this is just a guess. I feel quite certain no one actually knows the proper answer to the question, but there's certainly no shortage of people who think they do.....which is kind of at the heart of what this whole business is all about, as far as I can tell.
- rolltiide 7y ago
  One thing that annoys me about psychadelic discussion is how dismissive people are. Its predictable: Have a bad experience? “Whaat no way dude, you must have taken something else or you were predisposed to schizophrenia you should have predicted that and checked your family history and genetics first! This experience is totally invalid to us and anyone considering using our favorite psychadelic” Develop schizophrenia? “[abbreviated version of the same response]” Have an interesting idea? “Just an anecdote! More research necessary”
  - ditonal 7y ago
    This is totally true, not sure why it's downvoted. Psychedelic enthusiasts will often say "oh well that person who had a bad experience was predisposed and shouldn't have taken it." When there was literally no way of telling that the person was predisposed until they took the drug. You can be a fairly stable person but be predisposed to psychosis when you take psychedelic, but have no idea that's the case until you take the psychedelics. Maybe you family history is clear because nobody experimented with psychedelics and thus never triggered that predisposition, or maybe you just don't learn about every instance of psychosis in your family tree. If you try to bring this up to psychedelic enthusiasts they get defensive even though they're obviously in the wrong.
    - RandomTisk 7y ago
      Approximately what percent of the average population is predisposed to psychosis?
    - armitron 7y ago
      All breakthrough psychedelic experiences are serious psychotic events. Experienced psychonauts not only understand that psychosis can happen to anyone - regardless of history - but know how valuable it can be. Psychosis valuable? The difference between clinical psychosis and a psychedelic breakthrough experience is that the latter is integrated. The Psychonaut finds a way to make it part of his psyche and thus neutralize the dissonance. Those who talk about predisposition really have no clue regarding proper psychedelic use. Psychosis is the whole point. But, taking place inside a framework that allows for integration. There is a reason shamans have rituals.
- yowlingcat 7y ago
  What do you think happens when you dream? Would you believe prior art if it told you that your brain secretes DMT? Why do you think that occurs?
pazimzadeh 7y ago
Right. If you're trying to metaphorically reach the peak of a mountain, psychedelics are like a helicopter that lets you fly around, find the path and even reach the top. It's possible that you'll grow to rely on the helicopter to climb the mountain, but hopefully what you take away from it is that there is in fact a path (or accept that there's not - and you might has well climb a different mountain).
- mackrevinack 7y ago
  if you really make it to the top of the mountain and sort out your trauma then you would probably have less of a need to go to the top again
  - eric_cc 7y ago
    Meditation can be like dieting+exercise in a sense. There are people that let themselves go: eat unhealthy and gain weight, exercise too little and lose muscle and cardio, etc. Then when one day they look in the mirror, realize what they've become, and it motivates them to eat healthy for a period of time, hit the gym etc. In other words, they wait until they have an issue then solve it. They are re-active, not pro-active. Alternatively, you can maintain your physical health by always being mindful of what you eat and making sure to get adequate exercise, etc. Meditation is the same deal: don't wait until the day you have serious trauma to deal with in order to start a practice of mindfulness. Do not be reactive about it. Like physical health, it is far better to Maintain and be Proactive than to let it go then React. So if you reach the top of the mountain: do you just roll back down to the bottom and then have to start all over again? Or do you actively maintain your position?
steve_adams_86 7y ago
This is something I find profound about psilocybin in my own experience. The kinds of revelations you might have, the conclusions you come to, the discoveries - they're all relevant when you're back to a regular state of mind. If it helps you find ways to meditate, or simply discover that you can meditate, or that the benefits of meditating matter to you, that could help your practice immensely. I'm not saying it's for everyone (it's definitely not), but if you can find ways to leverage it I really believe it can be a helpful tool for growth, healing, and what the hell, just having fun.
- catchmilk 7y ago
  Can someone enlighten me here? What possible 'revelations' can you have from a psychedelic that you wouldn't get from a sober state of mind?
  - obituary_latte 7y ago
    It’s not worth pointing out anecdotal instances of these occurrences since it’s so personalized and dependent on ones own experiences and state of mind. What it offers, though — in the only way I know how to describe — is an alternative perspective. It’s like stepping outside of your usual self and evaluating things from an almost objective and completely different point of view. It’s this perspective that allows for revelations that otherwise wouldn’t happen in a sober state. This is a result of physiology and the chemical interactions in the brain due to ingestion of the substance. It’s quite an amazing experience. Sometimes it can be scary, or odd or just funny. But in my experience, it has led to some very profound experiences and insights.
  - im3w1l 7y ago
    I haven't tried any of the "real" psychedelics, but I can tell you my experience of insights I gained from high doses of pot, with almost no tolerance as there are many months to years between occasions. It made me pay attention to different things than I would normally pay attention to - things I arguably should have paid more attention to. Specifically social cues. I would repeat peoples words in my head over and over. I would go over written words and try to imagine the tone of voice very carefully. It also made me change my behavior (temporarily), partly as a result of the different way I was paying attention. I got to see how people responded to that changed behavior (they responded very positively).
apatters 7y ago
> Or it may aid in processing traumas that were blockades to meditation, with a net result of it being easier to do meditation practice afterwards even without psychedelics. It's all speculation until further research is done into how all this works exactly, no? Undoubtedly true, but there are several therapeutic approaches to trauma which are much better understood. We should do more research into psilocybin but it seems to me like the better understood therapies should be tried first.
- luckydata 7y ago
  We understand psylocibin a lot better than many think, a lot of three knowledge has just been ignored for a long time. In the fifties they achieved great results in the treatment of addiction that are just starting to be rediscovered now.

omarchowdhury 7y ago

> Or it may aid in processing traumas that were blockades to meditation, Or it may aid in giving one even more trauma. The outcome differs from person to person, I'm only offering my anecdotes based on my experience and people I know who dabble in psychedelics and meditation. The risk can be distilled to the simple idea of a crutch. Of course, not everyone will take it as a crutch. > But FWIW, this research seems to suggest one does not need to keep using psilocybin to have its long-lasting beneficial effects: And I relate this risk precisely because, in my opinion, most or many people will not deploy the same discipline in using psychedelics as conducted in the study or even use the psychedelics for the same purposes as the study. Once faced with the boredom of the non-psychedelic state of mind, people get agitated. But it's precisely facing this boredom and this agitation which will help them grow -- boredom and agitation are as much apart of reality and the human experience as is excitement and ecstasy.

vanderZwan 7y ago
Are you sure you're not confusing people abusing party drugs with people meditating while under psychedelics?
- omarchowdhury 7y ago
  Take a look at the message board shroomery.org to see a large group's (more than n=39) attitude toward meditation and psychedelics. Whether at a party or on the cushion, people are chasing after experiences, which don't last or are as beneficial as developing qualities.
  - vanderZwan 7y ago
    Have you heard of the concept of selection bias? If someone would do a meditative retreat combined with the influence of psilocybin, receive the benefits from that, and never feel the need to use psilocybin again you will not find them on shroomery.org. The only people you will find there are people with a sustained interest in doing psychedelic drugs. That's a bit of a circular argument then. There is no reason to believe that such a community of people is representative of the general population or the effects that psychedelics would have on them when combined with meditation and the guidance of one or more therapists.
    - omarchowdhury 7y ago
      You don't have to be patronizing. Selection bias is besides the point. My writing a common risk is to warn people from going towards the extreme of becoming psychedelic enthusiasts (abusers would be more apt). Your "general population" who are given psychedelics and meditation runs the risk of falling into that extreme (it is opening pandora's box), and their therapist isn't going to be there to babysit them all the time, this much is evident from prescription drug abuse.
      - olyjohn 7y ago
        I'm not an expert on drugs, but comparing psychedelics to any kind of prescription seems... I dunno, like not a very good comparison. Are there any psychedelics that are openly prescribed the way other "prescription drugs" are? I mean just saying "Abuse of prescription drugs" is such an ambiguous thing. If you're referring to opioids, etc that have an extreme physically addictive effect, that's not at all like how psychedelics work.
mistermann 7y ago
> Once faced with the boredom of the non-psychedelic state of mind, people get agitated. The overwhelming majority of anecdotal stories I've read suggest the exact opposite, in that people perceive a lasting (for some time at least) sense of peace, not agitation. Or perhaps by agitation you were referring to desire to re-experience the psychedelic experience rather than remaining content with peacefulness. I'd say this is quite common, and I can appreciate that a disciplined meditation practice is a fine idea, but I've yet to see any particularly compelling reason to believe a disciplined meditation practice is the only answer. My guess at it is that for most (but not necessarily all) people: (Disciplined psychedelic practice + Disciplined meditation practice) > (Disciplined psychedelic practice + decent meditation practice) > Disciplined meditation practice > Disciplined psychedelic practice > Undisciplined psychedelic or meditation practice But this is just a guess. I feel quite certain no one actually knows the proper answer to the question, but there's certainly no shortage of people who think they do.....which is kind of at the heart of what this whole business is all about, as far as I can tell.
rolltiide 7y ago
One thing that annoys me about psychadelic discussion is how dismissive people are. Its predictable: Have a bad experience? “Whaat no way dude, you must have taken something else or you were predisposed to schizophrenia you should have predicted that and checked your family history and genetics first! This experience is totally invalid to us and anyone considering using our favorite psychadelic” Develop schizophrenia? “[abbreviated version of the same response]” Have an interesting idea? “Just an anecdote! More research necessary”
- ditonal 7y ago
  This is totally true, not sure why it's downvoted. Psychedelic enthusiasts will often say "oh well that person who had a bad experience was predisposed and shouldn't have taken it." When there was literally no way of telling that the person was predisposed until they took the drug. You can be a fairly stable person but be predisposed to psychosis when you take psychedelic, but have no idea that's the case until you take the psychedelics. Maybe you family history is clear because nobody experimented with psychedelics and thus never triggered that predisposition, or maybe you just don't learn about every instance of psychosis in your family tree. If you try to bring this up to psychedelic enthusiasts they get defensive even though they're obviously in the wrong.
  - RandomTisk 7y ago
    Approximately what percent of the average population is predisposed to psychosis?
  - armitron 7y ago
    All breakthrough psychedelic experiences are serious psychotic events. Experienced psychonauts not only understand that psychosis can happen to anyone - regardless of history - but know how valuable it can be. Psychosis valuable? The difference between clinical psychosis and a psychedelic breakthrough experience is that the latter is integrated. The Psychonaut finds a way to make it part of his psyche and thus neutralize the dissonance. Those who talk about predisposition really have no clue regarding proper psychedelic use. Psychosis is the whole point. But, taking place inside a framework that allows for integration. There is a reason shamans have rituals.
yowlingcat 7y ago
What do you think happens when you dream? Would you believe prior art if it told you that your brain secretes DMT? Why do you think that occurs?

pazimzadeh 7y ago

Right. If you're trying to metaphorically reach the peak of a mountain, psychedelics are like a helicopter that lets you fly around, find the path and even reach the top. It's possible that you'll grow to rely on the helicopter to climb the mountain, but hopefully what you take away from it is that there is in fact a path (or accept that there's not - and you might has well climb a different mountain).

mackrevinack 7y ago
if you really make it to the top of the mountain and sort out your trauma then you would probably have less of a need to go to the top again
- eric_cc 7y ago
  Meditation can be like dieting+exercise in a sense. There are people that let themselves go: eat unhealthy and gain weight, exercise too little and lose muscle and cardio, etc. Then when one day they look in the mirror, realize what they've become, and it motivates them to eat healthy for a period of time, hit the gym etc. In other words, they wait until they have an issue then solve it. They are re-active, not pro-active. Alternatively, you can maintain your physical health by always being mindful of what you eat and making sure to get adequate exercise, etc. Meditation is the same deal: don't wait until the day you have serious trauma to deal with in order to start a practice of mindfulness. Do not be reactive about it. Like physical health, it is far better to Maintain and be Proactive than to let it go then React. So if you reach the top of the mountain: do you just roll back down to the bottom and then have to start all over again? Or do you actively maintain your position?

steve_adams_86 7y ago

This is something I find profound about psilocybin in my own experience. The kinds of revelations you might have, the conclusions you come to, the discoveries - they're all relevant when you're back to a regular state of mind. If it helps you find ways to meditate, or simply discover that you can meditate, or that the benefits of meditating matter to you, that could help your practice immensely. I'm not saying it's for everyone (it's definitely not), but if you can find ways to leverage it I really believe it can be a helpful tool for growth, healing, and what the hell, just having fun.

catchmilk 7y ago
Can someone enlighten me here? What possible 'revelations' can you have from a psychedelic that you wouldn't get from a sober state of mind?
- obituary_latte 7y ago
  It’s not worth pointing out anecdotal instances of these occurrences since it’s so personalized and dependent on ones own experiences and state of mind. What it offers, though — in the only way I know how to describe — is an alternative perspective. It’s like stepping outside of your usual self and evaluating things from an almost objective and completely different point of view. It’s this perspective that allows for revelations that otherwise wouldn’t happen in a sober state. This is a result of physiology and the chemical interactions in the brain due to ingestion of the substance. It’s quite an amazing experience. Sometimes it can be scary, or odd or just funny. But in my experience, it has led to some very profound experiences and insights.
- im3w1l 7y ago
  I haven't tried any of the "real" psychedelics, but I can tell you my experience of insights I gained from high doses of pot, with almost no tolerance as there are many months to years between occasions. It made me pay attention to different things than I would normally pay attention to - things I arguably should have paid more attention to. Specifically social cues. I would repeat peoples words in my head over and over. I would go over written words and try to imagine the tone of voice very carefully. It also made me change my behavior (temporarily), partly as a result of the different way I was paying attention. I got to see how people responded to that changed behavior (they responded very positively).

apatters 7y ago

> Or it may aid in processing traumas that were blockades to meditation, with a net result of it being easier to do meditation practice afterwards even without psychedelics. It's all speculation until further research is done into how all this works exactly, no? Undoubtedly true, but there are several therapeutic approaches to trauma which are much better understood. We should do more research into psilocybin but it seems to me like the better understood therapies should be tried first.

luckydata 7y ago
We understand psylocibin a lot better than many think, a lot of three knowledge has just been ignored for a long time. In the fifties they achieved great results in the treatment of addiction that are just starting to be rediscovered now.