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Exactly, even though nobody can claim that auto-industry and an evil cabal of drivers had any power in the USSR it still had anti-jaywalking laws. Ergo, the cla

Exactly, even though nobody can claim that auto-industry and an evil cabal of drivers had any power in the USSR it still had anti-jaywalking laws. Ergo, the claims here that the only possible reason to outlaw jaywalking is pandering to drivers and auto-industry are false.

romwell 7y ago
No, the claim is that the word jaywalking was invented to shift the responsibility away from the drivers. Shaping the language to spin the narrative. There is no such word in Russian.
- pandaman 7y ago
  You seem to be the only person making this claim here and without any serious arguments. Russian does not have single words for many other traffic violations too, nevertheless they remain illegal. Anyways, that was not the point I argued.
  - romwell 7y ago
    >You seem to be the only person making this claim here There's an entire thread[1] up here where people from the UK are saying the same thing: >>‘Jaywalkers’ is such an offensive concept >> "jaywalking" as a negative term was promoted by auto interests in the US in the early 20th century etc. >and without any serious arguments. My argument is simple: try translating "jaywalker" into literally any other language. You can't. "Jaywalker" as a concept only exists in the US. In other places, the law varies, but you can't call someone a "jaywalker" because there's no concept for it. And the law varies, too, but in most European countries it is not a thing; see Wikipedia[2]. As for the invention of the word and its usage to shift the blame to pedestrians: it's a well-known historical fact. See Wikipedia again on the origin and use of the word[2]. (To wit, in Russian, the best you could do for "jaywalker" would translate back as "a person who has crossed the street in a place not designated for it", which bring street into the debate: specifically, whether/why the point of crossing was not designated as such. There is no automatic negative connotation, because we all know how much streets layouts can suck. On top of that, you literally can't label a person as a "jaywalker" in Russian. Mind-blowing, right? Languages are fun. Even funner thing that it doesn't make sense in the UK English either, see the above thread[1].) Really, do read[1] and tell me where I am wrong. [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21459085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21459085 [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaywalking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaywalking
    - pandaman 7y ago
      >There's an entire thread[1] up here where people from the UK are saying the same thing Yeah, they are talking about the infraction, not the word. The point I had been making >My argument is simple: try translating "jaywalker" into literally any other language. You can't. "Jaywalker" as a concept only exists in the US. I can translate into Russian: "пешеход, совершивший переход проезжей части в неположенном месте". Don't know other languages but I am sure not every country is like a UK, where, according to comments here, everyone can just walk into traffic at any moment so everyone drives at 30kmh :) >On top of that, you literally can't label a person as a "jaywalker" in Russian. Mind-blowing, right? Languages are fun. You cannot label a person a "speeder" or "tailgater" in Russian too. Wow! Languages are fun indeed.
      - romwell 7y ago
        > "пешеход, совершивший переход проезжей части в неположенном месте" Isn't that what I wrote? :) Anyway, doesn't have the same ring to it, does it? Compare the title of the article with "Self-Driving Uber in Crash Wasn't Programmed to Spot Pedestrians Crossing the Street Anywhere Except Crosswalks". Which one makes Uber look less competent? >You cannot label a person a "speeder" or "tailgater" in Russian too. Wow! Languages are fun indeed. Well, yes! These aren't actions that warrant labeling a person in Russian. That tells you something indeed. However, as verbs, the do have direct translations: превышать (to speed), висеть на хвосте (to tailgate). Claim: "Jaywalking" does not translate to anything but literal dictionary definition like the one you provided in any language other than English, where it also has a clearly negative connotation. Etymology: early 20th century: from jay in the colloquial sense ‘silly person’ + walk. From Wikipedia: The term "jaywalking" is primarily a North American concept where laws restrict pedestrian use of public roads. In other countries such as the United Kingdom, the word is not generally used and there are no laws limiting how pedestrians can use public highways. Also from Wikipedia: The word jaywalk is not historically neutral.[5] It is a compound word derived from the word jay, an inexperienced person and a curse word that originated in the early 1900s, and walk. Automobile interests in the US took up the cause of labeling and scorning jaywalkers in the 1910s and early 1920s, by then the earlier term of "jay driver" was declining in use. I mean, it's all right there, with references. Again, what specifically are you arguing? That Wikipedia is wrong?

romwell 7y ago

No, the claim is that the word jaywalking was invented to shift the responsibility away from the drivers. Shaping the language to spin the narrative. There is no such word in Russian.

pandaman 7y ago
You seem to be the only person making this claim here and without any serious arguments. Russian does not have single words for many other traffic violations too, nevertheless they remain illegal. Anyways, that was not the point I argued.
- romwell 7y ago
  >You seem to be the only person making this claim here There's an entire thread[1] up here where people from the UK are saying the same thing: >>‘Jaywalkers’ is such an offensive concept >> "jaywalking" as a negative term was promoted by auto interests in the US in the early 20th century etc. >and without any serious arguments. My argument is simple: try translating "jaywalker" into literally any other language. You can't. "Jaywalker" as a concept only exists in the US. In other places, the law varies, but you can't call someone a "jaywalker" because there's no concept for it. And the law varies, too, but in most European countries it is not a thing; see Wikipedia[2]. As for the invention of the word and its usage to shift the blame to pedestrians: it's a well-known historical fact. See Wikipedia again on the origin and use of the word[2]. (To wit, in Russian, the best you could do for "jaywalker" would translate back as "a person who has crossed the street in a place not designated for it", which bring street into the debate: specifically, whether/why the point of crossing was not designated as such. There is no automatic negative connotation, because we all know how much streets layouts can suck. On top of that, you literally can't label a person as a "jaywalker" in Russian. Mind-blowing, right? Languages are fun. Even funner thing that it doesn't make sense in the UK English either, see the above thread[1].) Really, do read[1] and tell me where I am wrong. [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21459085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21459085 [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaywalking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaywalking
  - pandaman 7y ago
    >There's an entire thread[1] up here where people from the UK are saying the same thing Yeah, they are talking about the infraction, not the word. The point I had been making >My argument is simple: try translating "jaywalker" into literally any other language. You can't. "Jaywalker" as a concept only exists in the US. I can translate into Russian: "пешеход, совершивший переход проезжей части в неположенном месте". Don't know other languages but I am sure not every country is like a UK, where, according to comments here, everyone can just walk into traffic at any moment so everyone drives at 30kmh :) >On top of that, you literally can't label a person as a "jaywalker" in Russian. Mind-blowing, right? Languages are fun. You cannot label a person a "speeder" or "tailgater" in Russian too. Wow! Languages are fun indeed.
    - romwell 7y ago
      > "пешеход, совершивший переход проезжей части в неположенном месте" Isn't that what I wrote? :) Anyway, doesn't have the same ring to it, does it? Compare the title of the article with "Self-Driving Uber in Crash Wasn't Programmed to Spot Pedestrians Crossing the Street Anywhere Except Crosswalks". Which one makes Uber look less competent? >You cannot label a person a "speeder" or "tailgater" in Russian too. Wow! Languages are fun indeed. Well, yes! These aren't actions that warrant labeling a person in Russian. That tells you something indeed. However, as verbs, the do have direct translations: превышать (to speed), висеть на хвосте (to tailgate). Claim: "Jaywalking" does not translate to anything but literal dictionary definition like the one you provided in any language other than English, where it also has a clearly negative connotation. Etymology: early 20th century: from jay in the colloquial sense ‘silly person’ + walk. From Wikipedia: The term "jaywalking" is primarily a North American concept where laws restrict pedestrian use of public roads. In other countries such as the United Kingdom, the word is not generally used and there are no laws limiting how pedestrians can use public highways. Also from Wikipedia: The word jaywalk is not historically neutral.[5] It is a compound word derived from the word jay, an inexperienced person and a curse word that originated in the early 1900s, and walk. Automobile interests in the US took up the cause of labeling and scorning jaywalkers in the 1910s and early 1920s, by then the earlier term of "jay driver" was declining in use. I mean, it's all right there, with references. Again, what specifically are you arguing? That Wikipedia is wrong?