17 ms·

Airbnb Plans to Verify Every Listing

175 points by ilamont 7y ago

jonplackett 7y ago
What’s happening? This link goes to an article about poli tal ads on Twitter, not Airbnb. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/dealbook/boeing-dealbook-conference.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/dealbook/boeing-...
- rkangel 7y ago
  I think someone must have mistakenly edited the link? This appears to be the correct article: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/airbnb-verify-listings.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/airbnb-verify-li...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
whywhywhywhy 7y ago
The fact they didn't already is frankly shocking. Imagine turning up at a random house the other side of the world and being scammed.
wyclif 7y ago
The link is bad.
- uncoder0 7y ago
  Yeah link not working for me either.
crorella 7y ago
Is airbnb still a thing ?
elvinyung 7y ago
In case anyone missed the context, this is probably related to https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/43k7z3/nationwide-fake-host-scam-on-airbnb https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/43k7z3/nationwide-fake-ho...
- jaclaz 7y ago
  Thank you for the reference :).
- personlurking 7y ago
  For which this was the HN post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21408178 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21408178 The service AirBnB offers is rife with problems, as can be gleaned from reading the comments.
- zippergz 7y ago
  More likely this. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-11-03/airbnb-says-its-banning-party-houses-after-deadly-halloween-shooting-in-orinda https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-11-03/airbnb-s...
jonnsl 7y ago
Link to source: https://news.airbnb.com/in-the-business-of-trust/ https://news.airbnb.com/in-the-business-of-trust/
n9 7y ago
Tech company indicates a "plan" to do something that they implicitly assured everyone that they'd be doing from the get go. I question how much effort, cost and what the timeline would be to build the logistics to realize this goal and, given their past performance, how many more vectors for scams they will create along the way. They have profited from the risk that they have pushed out to their customers, I'm not sure that they will actually do anything substantive, but feel certain that they will make it seem as though they are.
- mekane8 7y ago
  I'll admit that the announcement gave me hope and made me feel positively about AirBnB - I'm sure it was carefully crafted to do just that. But I'm glad I came across your comment because it gave me the cold splash of realism to balance out their PR blast.
deadmik3 7y ago
unrelated to the article but it is really dumb that ny times doesn't have anchor linking right to specific headlines if they're going to put every article on the same page. I was wondering why this linked to an article about Kim Kardashian before I scrolled halfway down the page, past every ad of course...
- abawany 7y ago
  This is a link to a daily NYT newsletter (Dealbook), which is why I think you saw the strangeness. Here is the direct link: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/airbnb-verify-listings.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/airbnb-verify-li... .
- progval 7y ago
  https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/dealbook/boeing-dealbook-conference.html#link-365a4db4 https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/dealbook/boeing-...
trustfundbaby 7y ago
Should have been doing that from the get go, but better late than never. I'd like to see specifics though, how often do they plan to do these verifications? What happens if someone puts up a listing just to get verified, then cleans it out and goes about business as usual? What about hosts that let their place fall into disrepair over the years? etc
abawany 7y ago
Direct link to the article: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/airbnb-verify-listings.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/airbnb-verify-li... .
- lemoncucumber 7y ago
  This is a better link, I was going to post the same thing
- ilamont 7y ago
  If @dang or other moderators are reading, I agree the link should go to this article ... when I posted the Dealbook link, the Airbnb news was at the top. It has since been pushed down the page.
binarysolo 7y ago
This kinda makes sense - esp since housing inventory is a recurring revenue generator. That being said, I am curious how much of the inspection cost they'd pass on to the lister -- it seems like getting a guy out to check each listing is gonna be $25-$100 an inspection depending on how many places you can lump together, so someone's gotta pay the costs there. Maybe the end result will be an "AirBnB-verified" badge and increased search exposure (a la Amazon FBA/Prime listings have better ranking, or like one of those a pay-to-play Alibaba approved vendor kinda badge that creates financial downside for people who spuriously list lots of fake listings)? At which point I can see the choices for AirBnB hosts become "pay X to get verified" or basically don't get traffic. Am also curious how this would play out more as plenty of under-the-table renters (barred from AirBnBing by their HOA) would end up getting enhanced visibility of their activities due to these verifications. The whole obfuscating address thing on AirBnB seemed to be a huge hack to get around HOA/landlord/legal rules so extra verification would seem to hurt some core, grey part of the business too.
- wuschel 7y ago
  > so someone's gotta pay the costs there. I checked out yesterday from my Airbnb apartment. In addition to the normal host rating questionaire I was sent to a fairly detailed additional set of forms: as the last customer in the apartment I was asked to rate what apartment details I had found to be as advertised. The forms were optional.
- user5994461 7y ago
  AirBnb already offer to send a photographer for free to take pictures of your flat. Having a verification visit is similar service and can be provided for free too. Practically speaking, they're taking around 25% commission on bookings. It's more than enough to cover inspections and pictures.
ogre_codes 7y ago
From the comment in the article it sounds like they are trying to offload the cost/ effort of verifying listings to their customers as well: "But he said the process would involve asking users whether the information in certain listings turned out to be accurate" So when he says AirBNB is going to verify every listing, he doesn't actually mean they are paying people to do it...
- feintruled 7y ago
  Using their customers as the proverbial canary in the coal mine. Perhaps the analogy works a little too well, when carbon monoxide detectors are involved. Tech companies always expect us to swallow the "oh there's too much to possibly check manually!" (even when they are the richest companies in the world) but surely they could hire an inspector to do random spot checks? I used to have a friend who worked for Guinness who did that, dropped in on random bars to sample the quality of their stock. Quite the job.
- duskwuff 7y ago
  Which is deeply disappointing, and makes me worried that fraudulent hosts will work around the issue by having a co-conspirator book their room to "verify" the listing.
  - jedberg 7y ago
    That would be unlikely to work. It'll probably be like Yelp, where when you check in, they say "does this place have wifi" or "do they take credit cards". You don't verify everything all at once. They'll probably have algorithms to determine who are legit travelers and ask them to do the most verification and of the most risky stuff.
  - situational87 7y ago
    It's almost like we are intentionally bending over backwards to avoid hiring some human beings to do some real fucking work. When did this become the mantra of every tech company? Any time a job is created it's viewed as an unfortunate mistake or side effect? Who are we even building all this for?
umvi 7y ago
Would it kill AirBnB to do random (or even algorithmically-determined) audits? Auditor signs up for a night in your house. Let's say your listing has fake pictures or fake amenities. Or you try to bait and switch the auditor by having them stay in some crappy other property because the main listing "is having plumbing problems". Bam, audit failed, your account is frozen, your listings are removed, and you are banned from using AirBnB pending investigation.
- duxup 7y ago
  They don't want to know. All those unfortunate things for you and me are risk mitigation/ cost savings for them.
- rehasu 7y ago
  Just adding a bonus point system and giving bonus points for creating well documented problem tickets would do the same trick, imho.
  - brnt 7y ago
    Anything crowdsourced can and will be gamed. That is the essence of this type of problem.
    - noodle 7y ago
      Particularly since Airbnb is a two way system. I once stayed in a place where I was basically being told to give them 5 stars or else they'd give me 1 star for being a difficult guest.
      - YokoZar 7y ago
        How were they planning on doing this? They don't get to see the rating you gave until after their review of you is finalized, and vice-versa.
        grawprog 7y ago
rehasu 7y ago
Okay, are they planning an IPO or are they planning to get bought? I'd guess IPO. Otherwise increasing amount of rentals would probably be more important than making sure everything is legally air tight.
rb808 7y ago
While we're here, Congrats to Jersey City for regulating short term rentals like AirBnB. I'd hate to have to live next to a AirBnB unit.
- HeavenFox 7y ago
  I live in Jersey City, and the high-rise apartment buildings on the waterfront are pretty much half landlord-operated AirBnB now, since Jersey City essentially absorbed all the demand from NYC which already banned short term rental. It's getting out of hand. I certainly welcome the ban. I lived next to short term rental for a long time (and might still do, not sure). It's a mixed bag. Since it's short term rental it's empty half the time, which is good because I don't hear the noise from them. However during check-in and check-out time it takes a long time to get an elevator. The only thing I am afraid of is whether the landlord would increase the rent to cover the lost revenue from short term rental.
- odysseus 7y ago
  I live next to an Airbnb unit. Never had a problem, with one exception of a renter’s pickup temporarily blocking the driveway.
accidentaldev 7y ago
They should make it mandatory, every user should be forced to answer certain question after their stay or pay a fine - they can pitch it as a 5% discount Next advancement would be to tax every stay and use it to an agency that would establish rules on “hosts” and regulations on room conditions. After that, next advancement would be to realize this has existed for 200 years and is called government.
- CaptainZapp 7y ago
  They should make it mandatory, every user should be forced to answer certain question after their stay or pay a fine - they can pitch it as a 5% discount Yeah, sure. After I get the privilege to stay in a soulless, cookie cutter appartment where I have to tiptoe around the neighbors because the lease is illegal and pay essentially the same amount as for a hotel room, I also get threatened with a fine for not working for free for AirBnb? And all that while possibly recorded by hidden cameras, which are not part of the description and for which AirBnb doesn't really give a fuck, unless there's some bad PR to counter? I think I stick with hotel rooms.
djohnston 7y ago
My worst AirBnb was let via a proxy agent. The flat wasn't actually rentable even though it was online, and so I showed up to a locked flat, no key, with all of my bags in a new city. AirBnB refunded it and gave me 50 AirBnb Bucks (TM). I only do hotels now, unless someone else is handling the reservation.
- lostdog 7y ago
  The worst thing about AirBnB is that they make no effort to fix the problem. When on a vacation, and we found our AirBnB had fewer beds than advertised, we complained, and then were told that the owner wanted us "out immediately." So now we're stranded in a new city. Great. AirBnB offered to put us up anywhere cheaper than the original price we had booked. Of course, booking 2 months in advance is much cheaper than the same day, so everywhere they offered was >60 miles away. And this was an urban location, so no, we didn't have a car either. So we gave up and stayed in a hotel. Two months later, after many rounds of negotiating over the phone, AirBnB finally reimbursed us the full amount. Being stranded in a new city sucked, and it's obvious that AirBnB's policies for fixing issues are purposefully bad, so AirBnB is now a last resort for us. So I can recommend AirBnB as a great option if you're ok with a 10% chance of having nowhere to sleep that night!
  - bkor 7y ago
    Via the stories from "talesfromthefrontdesk" I learned that hotels will pay a room for you in another hotel in case they cannot accommodate you (e.g. overbooking). IMO AirBNB should by law have a similar rule. This as (as you say) last minute prices are indeed significant higher than booking in advance. Further, the risk should be on AirBNB, not on the customer.
  - tehlike 7y ago
    This sounds like something you can use your credit card to do charge back. Easier to deal with, almost guaranteed to happen.
  - swang 7y ago
    same thing happened to me in terms of getting money back. the reason for the refund was completely different but i was very unhappy with a stay. i wrote a very lengthy description of my complaints and had pictures to back it up. a large part of the issue was they didn't clean the room. i ended up having to fight with airbnb for weeks to get the full refund (they initially refused to give back the "cleaning fee" when a large part of my complaint was the place wasn't clean). i am not totally against staying at an airbnb, but i haven't booked one since and look primarily at hotels. that bad stay ruined my plans for the last night of my trip and i barely saved $50 from staying at a nice hotel.
djohnston 7y ago
More generally, I think we're living in the moment where all successful startups acknowledge the fact that growth means more people, and more people means higher likelihoods of terrible behavior, since humans are on average a terrible organism, at least in relation to the values we espouse.
- verisimilitudes 7y ago
  since humans are on average a terrible organism, at least in relation to the values we espouse. Surely you recognize the irony in stating this here, considering the pieces of shit who create these startups are responsible for making the world worse at a large scale, purely for their own gain, right? It's obscene to me how you've written this. These startups ignore major laws, break numerous consumer protection laws as well, purposefully provide mechanisms intended to hurt anyone but themselves, erode societal trust, and even kill people, and yet you're blaming the people these vampires feed from?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
agoodthrowaway 7y ago
Is this just a secret shopper?
smt88 7y ago
No amount of "verification" can get me to stay in an Airbnb. There's no way for them to prevent homeowners from installing (legal) hidden cameras, and when cameras are discovered, they defer responsibility (to preserve their brand image). A hotel, by contrast, can't legally have hidden cameras and takes the full brunt of the bad PR if one is discovered.
- paggle 7y ago
  Case in point, when sportscaster Erin Andrews was illegally filmed nude in her hotel room, the jury awarded her $55 million with the hotel 49% liable -- which is $27 million responsibility for the hotel. Compare this consequence to the zero consequences faced by Airbnb hosts who have hidden cameras.
- malkuth23 7y ago
  It is definitely not legal to setup hidden cameras anywhere that would be private inside your Airbnb. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/108/s1301/text https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/108/s1301/text Also, Airbnb asks you if there are any cameras in any place on your property and it is a violation to have cameras even on your front porch without acknowledging them. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it is definitely not legal. It also happens in hotels on occasion and not always with the managements knowledge.
  - smt88 7y ago
    It's legal. Airbnb didn't (doesn't?) forbid it![1] They aren't even courageous enough to do that much. > has the intent to capture an image of a private area of an individual without their consent This law is basically forbidding voyeur porn. A host could install a "security" camera in a living room. For a studio apartment, that would also be a bedroom. That's completely legal. Perhaps the camera is installed, but it's "not turned on". All legal. But once the landlord steps across the line by turning the camera on, publishing videos, etc., the law is broken, but it's already too late. 1. https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/airbnb-you-might-be-camera-whether-you-it-or-not-n974776 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/airbnb-you-might-be-ca...
lemoncucumber 7y ago
I don't see anything about addressing retaliatory negative reviews, which seems like a not insignificant part of the problem as described in the Vice article (https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/43k7z3/nationwide-fake-host-scam-on-airbnb https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/43k7z3/nationwide-fake-ho...)
- heurist 7y ago
  That part seemed odd to me, neither hosts or guests can see the others' reviews until after both have submitted (or the review period expires).
  - matheist 7y ago
    If a guest complains to customer support, and support contacts the host about it, then the host can retaliate on the support request. guest => support: "the place was filthy, I want a refund" support => host: "guest says it was filthy is that true" host => support: "lol no" host reviews guest: "terrible, all they did was complain, beware"
  - on_and_off 7y ago
    I had a shitty host retaliate against my deserved bad review by asking imaginary fees. I had to categorically refuse to pay these, Airbnb support was absolutely not helping. Actually I would not be totally surprised if Airbnb asked me to pay that the next time I do a reservation with them. It might be in a very long while though, this experience has ended my honeymoon with this service.
tempsy 7y ago
What verification tech/processes does Airbnb have at all? I haven't hosted in a few years but I don't recall ever uploading any document (i.e. a utility bill, a mortgage doc, a rental agreement, etc.) with my address on it to prove that I even live in the place that I was attempting to rent out. Seems like they've let this all slide for way too long and it's all catching up to them at the worst possible moment.
eiopa 7y ago
The 24/7 support sounds promising. This has been their Achilles heel for many years. Anecdotally, I once checked into an Airbnb with a leaky roof. After spending a good 20 minutes trying to get to a human (a small eternity when you’re in an unfortunate situation), Airbnb asked that I spend hours negotiating with my non-responsive host on a solution, which is obviously nonsensical given the situation. Being able to instantly talk to someone and feel like I am being taken care of would have made all the difference in the world. Instead, I churned from their platform.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
lomutinaci 7y ago
this will make a lot of listings go away, specially if you have to wait for them to come and verify
bredren 7y ago
When will Airbnb ban hidden cameras?
- colejohnson66 7y ago
  They already do. Kindof. If you don’t put it in your listing, you can be banned. Or so I’ve heard.
mattsfrey 7y ago
Anyone read the updated article? Clinton applauds twitter for banning political ads and encourages facebook to do the same.. All this does is shift all of the power to those that can buy the mainstream media outlets
adventureartist 7y ago
It seems the big thing Airbnb should be verifying is the fake "hosts", where an LLC is renting out a dozen units or more in a city as a business, but then lying to the customer that they are renting "Jack and Judy's flat".
canada_dry 7y ago
Anytime I see a story about Airbnb I like to point out: https://www.airbnbhell.com https://www.airbnbhell.com I found this site after being the victim of the now infamous "oh sorry something wrong with your flat" scam. What was supposed to be an "executive suite" turned out to be a cockroach ridden dump. Not sure if Airbnb has improved since but they were utterly useless in refunding my money, let alone helping me find alternate accommodations. I have used Airbnb since, but as a last resort and after way too much effort to separate what might be scams from (hopefully) legit listings. I agree with the poster further on who says you need to be prepared (have a plan 'b') for the chance that the booking will fall through at the last minute.
toss1 7y ago
AirBnB's existing guest verification process loks onerous, but is trivial to work-around. For some reservations, they demand to have your Driver's License image, both sides (to include he various barcodes, etc.) and some other items. For a friend who did not want the risk of having their full set of data floating around out there, I used some readily available & free tools to make some (self-consistent) edits to the documents to reduce personal identification risk in that DB of IDs. Although quite bogus, the docs passed verification instantly. So, now, AirBnB and the host now erroneously think that they have a verified guest, when they have no such thing. Their verification is not only an onerous process that crates a massive honeypot of personal-ID information just waiting to be hacked & stolen, it is also a farce insofar as filtering out even any mildly motivated person, whether intent on protecting their privacy, or on scamming. Dubious that their host-side listing will be any more valid.
- say_it_as_it_is 7y ago
  Know the risks. This is known as fraud and it is considered a crime in most developed regions in the world. It is an intentional false representation of fact intended to mislead. Deception in the case of short term accomodations (AirBnB, VRBO) can lead to legal injury. You are at risk of having a criminal record. While this may seem fine because you're not intending to do anything malicious, situations outside of your control may arise during your stay and your fraud will be revealed. If nothing happens during your stay, you will likely get away with this kind of fraud. The problem is that you're risking having a criminal record just to avoid a third party having temporary possession of your drivers license. Guests at a hotel or motel always share their drivers license at the front desk. When you rent a car, a drivers license is required. The difference between these in-person experiences and one entirely digital is a false sense of anonymity online. This aside, drivers license identification is never saved to a database, file or anywhere if it is done correctly. Read the terms and conditions to see for yourself. The hotels, however, save that information in a database and may not remove it. In other words, online verification is more secure than in person.
- abawany 7y ago
  This crazy requirement for ID upload was the reason why I never completed my AirBnB profile. I wish I had thought of what you did. Instead, I use HomeAway, which didn't have such a nasty scheme for validation. It too has similar problems as AirBnB with shady hosts, last minute cancellations, etc. though.
rhacker 7y ago
Please just stop using them. I just passed up on buying a house because the neighbors were - you guessed it, an airbnb. I was lucky to have found out before I got into a contract. It's always great when you find out the reason someone is selling - isn't it?
- jimmaswell 7y ago
  Why would anybody care their neighbor is an AirBnB?
  - throw03172019 7y ago
    Guests may be loud, lots of moving in and out, parking, late night arrivals, etc.
  - dawsmik 7y ago
    He likely means they are a poorly managed AirBnB. People often throw parties, are loud, etc... when the host doesnt manage them well.
    - rhacker 7y ago
      The cars that come one day might be hip hop. The next it's loud base music that distracts everyone from what they're doing. No matter what the rules are for the AirBNB, you can't control the people arriving and leaving. That's different from having a single neighbor that leaves for work at 6am, listens to country, and gets back at home at 3. Now you have distractions all day long from random, unexpected noises at unexpected times. It's not a question of if you "can" put up with that. It's if you "would" put up with that given a choice of having a stable, quiet neighbor, or a random neighbor every day that makes different sounds (and smells - smoking? vaping? MJ?). What about police arriving, ambulances? People bring a lot of crazy.
fourmii 7y ago
I like the original premise of AirBnB, where homeowners could rent out a spare bed or their home when they were on vacation. But seems like these days, those homeowners are either all gone, or are being hugely outnumbered by scammers or AirBnB businesses. We (a group of 5 friends) just finished a trip in Vietnam and we used AirBnB3 times. And all 3 times, the listings were not exactly truthful. The worst was a listing in Hanoi that claimed to be able to fit 12 adults. When we arrived, we could only identify 4 queen beds (2 of which were jammed together in 1 room). The other 2 listings we used were in the same complex in Saigon. We booked the listings based on our criteria of having a single home with at least 5 bedrooms. Both listings turned out to be 2 separate apartments. Both are in a complex claimed to be among the first in Saigon to disallow AirBnB. Both times, we had to pretend to the receptionists that we were long term renters. We wanted AirBnB so that we could chill together in a common space. These experiences make use want to book hotels next time...
tjbiddle 7y ago
Good. Living in SEA, the number of times where I want to book an AirBnb and they advertise it as "Entire house" and it ends up being a single room and shared living is ridiculous. It takes me 10x as long to vet out and find a place out here. And even then, I'm disappointed the majority of the time.
- notyourwork 7y ago
  Plenty of hotels in SEA.
  - tjbiddle 7y ago
    The reason I book an AirBnb is that I want my home away from home. I don't want a hotel. I want to pop into an area that I'm visiting and feel as if I have my own space.
    - notyourwork 7y ago
      There’s hotels that provide this, look for long term hotels. They will have kitchens and everything else. If those don’t work than you are going to have to gamble with Airbnb. I used to use Airbnb for same reason but found inconsistency and don’t have patience to hope the place is adequate. Therefore I went back to hotels.
      - tjbiddle 7y ago
        You still don't understand. I don't want a hotel with a kitchen and all that jazz. That's still a hotel. I want a house. I want a garden. I want a pool. I want some trees. I want a living room. I want it to be a literal home.
        notyourwork 7y ago
        No I do, I just don’t have patience to be gambling when I travel and AirBnb is a crap shoot as of late.
break_the_bank 7y ago
My worst AirBnb experience was a bait and switch. A different unit in the same building. A lot smaller unit mind you. The host wouldn't agree but sharing pictures with Airbnb, they ruled in my favor and refunded half(after AirBnb service charges).
- on_and_off 7y ago
  wow... they would not even refund in full. Classy way to handle issues in your platform Airbnb.
enra 7y ago
FYI people asking about the verifications. The Plus listings (as well as lux) are all verified by someone, has specific standards, including the amenities. So if you worry about the quality, search for plus listings (hit the filters on search page and select plus) My guess this means they will extend/move more listings to the plus category over time. (Disclaimer: used to work at Airbnb)
drewbt 7y ago
It’s about time. Earlier this year I moved to Cape Town, with an Airbnb booked for the first month. I was the first guest, and the place did not meet even the most basic standards of hygiene. What’s worse is that there was still evidence of the place being used as a crack house. Needless to say, I refused to stay there and Airbnb gave a full refund. All of this could have been avoided by a simple verification system. Any new listing should, at the very least, be viewed and assessed against a list of basic standards before a paying guest arrives at the door.
- bkor 7y ago
  > Needless to say, I refused to stay there and Airbnb gave a full refund. I don't think that's good enough. You were relying on that accommodation. Now the worst for AirBNB is that they won't make money. So there's no incentive to do anything about it. Further, if you suddenly need to switch accommodations the last minute price will be much higher than usual. AirBNB should fix the accommodation problem they caused. They must/should offer an alternative.

175 points by ilamont 7y ago

What’s happening? This link goes to an article about poli tal ads on Twitter, not Airbnb. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/dealbook/boeing-dealbook-conference.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/dealbook/boeing-...

rkangel 7y ago
I think someone must have mistakenly edited the link? This appears to be the correct article: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/airbnb-verify-listings.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/airbnb-verify-li...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

whywhywhywhy 7y ago

The fact they didn't already is frankly shocking. Imagine turning up at a random house the other side of the world and being scammed.

wyclif 7y ago

The link is bad.

uncoder0 7y ago
Yeah link not working for me either.

crorella 7y ago

Is airbnb still a thing ?

elvinyung 7y ago

In case anyone missed the context, this is probably related to https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/43k7z3/nationwide-fake-host-scam-on-airbnb https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/43k7z3/nationwide-fake-ho...

jaclaz 7y ago
Thank you for the reference :).
personlurking 7y ago
For which this was the HN post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21408178 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21408178 The service AirBnB offers is rife with problems, as can be gleaned from reading the comments.
zippergz 7y ago
More likely this. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-11-03/airbnb-says-its-banning-party-houses-after-deadly-halloween-shooting-in-orinda https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-11-03/airbnb-s...

jonnsl 7y ago

Link to source: https://news.airbnb.com/in-the-business-of-trust/ https://news.airbnb.com/in-the-business-of-trust/

n9 7y ago

Tech company indicates a "plan" to do something that they implicitly assured everyone that they'd be doing from the get go. I question how much effort, cost and what the timeline would be to build the logistics to realize this goal and, given their past performance, how many more vectors for scams they will create along the way. They have profited from the risk that they have pushed out to their customers, I'm not sure that they will actually do anything substantive, but feel certain that they will make it seem as though they are.

mekane8 7y ago
I'll admit that the announcement gave me hope and made me feel positively about AirBnB - I'm sure it was carefully crafted to do just that. But I'm glad I came across your comment because it gave me the cold splash of realism to balance out their PR blast.

deadmik3 7y ago

unrelated to the article but it is really dumb that ny times doesn't have anchor linking right to specific headlines if they're going to put every article on the same page. I was wondering why this linked to an article about Kim Kardashian before I scrolled halfway down the page, past every ad of course...

abawany 7y ago
This is a link to a daily NYT newsletter (Dealbook), which is why I think you saw the strangeness. Here is the direct link: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/airbnb-verify-listings.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/airbnb-verify-li... .
progval 7y ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/dealbook/boeing-dealbook-conference.html#link-365a4db4 https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/dealbook/boeing-...

trustfundbaby 7y ago

Should have been doing that from the get go, but better late than never. I'd like to see specifics though, how often do they plan to do these verifications? What happens if someone puts up a listing just to get verified, then cleans it out and goes about business as usual? What about hosts that let their place fall into disrepair over the years? etc

abawany 7y ago

Direct link to the article: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/airbnb-verify-listings.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/business/airbnb-verify-li... .

lemoncucumber 7y ago
This is a better link, I was going to post the same thing
ilamont 7y ago
If @dang or other moderators are reading, I agree the link should go to this article ... when I posted the Dealbook link, the Airbnb news was at the top. It has since been pushed down the page.

binarysolo 7y ago

This kinda makes sense - esp since housing inventory is a recurring revenue generator. That being said, I am curious how much of the inspection cost they'd pass on to the lister -- it seems like getting a guy out to check each listing is gonna be $25-$100 an inspection depending on how many places you can lump together, so someone's gotta pay the costs there. Maybe the end result will be an "AirBnB-verified" badge and increased search exposure (a la Amazon FBA/Prime listings have better ranking, or like one of those a pay-to-play Alibaba approved vendor kinda badge that creates financial downside for people who spuriously list lots of fake listings)? At which point I can see the choices for AirBnB hosts become "pay X to get verified" or basically don't get traffic. Am also curious how this would play out more as plenty of under-the-table renters (barred from AirBnBing by their HOA) would end up getting enhanced visibility of their activities due to these verifications. The whole obfuscating address thing on AirBnB seemed to be a huge hack to get around HOA/landlord/legal rules so extra verification would seem to hurt some core, grey part of the business too.

wuschel 7y ago
> so someone's gotta pay the costs there. I checked out yesterday from my Airbnb apartment. In addition to the normal host rating questionaire I was sent to a fairly detailed additional set of forms: as the last customer in the apartment I was asked to rate what apartment details I had found to be as advertised. The forms were optional.
user5994461 7y ago
AirBnb already offer to send a photographer for free to take pictures of your flat. Having a verification visit is similar service and can be provided for free too. Practically speaking, they're taking around 25% commission on bookings. It's more than enough to cover inspections and pictures.

ogre_codes 7y ago

From the comment in the article it sounds like they are trying to offload the cost/ effort of verifying listings to their customers as well: "But he said the process would involve asking users whether the information in certain listings turned out to be accurate" So when he says AirBNB is going to verify every listing, he doesn't actually mean they are paying people to do it...

feintruled 7y ago
Using their customers as the proverbial canary in the coal mine. Perhaps the analogy works a little too well, when carbon monoxide detectors are involved. Tech companies always expect us to swallow the "oh there's too much to possibly check manually!" (even when they are the richest companies in the world) but surely they could hire an inspector to do random spot checks? I used to have a friend who worked for Guinness who did that, dropped in on random bars to sample the quality of their stock. Quite the job.
duskwuff 7y ago
Which is deeply disappointing, and makes me worried that fraudulent hosts will work around the issue by having a co-conspirator book their room to "verify" the listing.
- jedberg 7y ago
  That would be unlikely to work. It'll probably be like Yelp, where when you check in, they say "does this place have wifi" or "do they take credit cards". You don't verify everything all at once. They'll probably have algorithms to determine who are legit travelers and ask them to do the most verification and of the most risky stuff.
- situational87 7y ago
  It's almost like we are intentionally bending over backwards to avoid hiring some human beings to do some real fucking work. When did this become the mantra of every tech company? Any time a job is created it's viewed as an unfortunate mistake or side effect? Who are we even building all this for?

umvi 7y ago

Would it kill AirBnB to do random (or even algorithmically-determined) audits? Auditor signs up for a night in your house. Let's say your listing has fake pictures or fake amenities. Or you try to bait and switch the auditor by having them stay in some crappy other property because the main listing "is having plumbing problems". Bam, audit failed, your account is frozen, your listings are removed, and you are banned from using AirBnB pending investigation.

duxup 7y ago
They don't want to know. All those unfortunate things for you and me are risk mitigation/ cost savings for them.
rehasu 7y ago
Just adding a bonus point system and giving bonus points for creating well documented problem tickets would do the same trick, imho.
- brnt 7y ago
  Anything crowdsourced can and will be gamed. That is the essence of this type of problem.
  - noodle 7y ago
    Particularly since Airbnb is a two way system. I once stayed in a place where I was basically being told to give them 5 stars or else they'd give me 1 star for being a difficult guest.
    - YokoZar 7y ago
      How were they planning on doing this? They don't get to see the rating you gave until after their review of you is finalized, and vice-versa.
      - grawprog 7y ago

rehasu 7y ago

Okay, are they planning an IPO or are they planning to get bought? I'd guess IPO. Otherwise increasing amount of rentals would probably be more important than making sure everything is legally air tight.

rb808 7y ago

While we're here, Congrats to Jersey City for regulating short term rentals like AirBnB. I'd hate to have to live next to a AirBnB unit.

HeavenFox 7y ago
I live in Jersey City, and the high-rise apartment buildings on the waterfront are pretty much half landlord-operated AirBnB now, since Jersey City essentially absorbed all the demand from NYC which already banned short term rental. It's getting out of hand. I certainly welcome the ban. I lived next to short term rental for a long time (and might still do, not sure). It's a mixed bag. Since it's short term rental it's empty half the time, which is good because I don't hear the noise from them. However during check-in and check-out time it takes a long time to get an elevator. The only thing I am afraid of is whether the landlord would increase the rent to cover the lost revenue from short term rental.
odysseus 7y ago
I live next to an Airbnb unit. Never had a problem, with one exception of a renter’s pickup temporarily blocking the driveway.

accidentaldev 7y ago

They should make it mandatory, every user should be forced to answer certain question after their stay or pay a fine - they can pitch it as a 5% discount Next advancement would be to tax every stay and use it to an agency that would establish rules on “hosts” and regulations on room conditions. After that, next advancement would be to realize this has existed for 200 years and is called government.

CaptainZapp 7y ago
They should make it mandatory, every user should be forced to answer certain question after their stay or pay a fine - they can pitch it as a 5% discount Yeah, sure. After I get the privilege to stay in a soulless, cookie cutter appartment where I have to tiptoe around the neighbors because the lease is illegal and pay essentially the same amount as for a hotel room, I also get threatened with a fine for not working for free for AirBnb? And all that while possibly recorded by hidden cameras, which are not part of the description and for which AirBnb doesn't really give a fuck, unless there's some bad PR to counter? I think I stick with hotel rooms.

djohnston 7y ago

My worst AirBnb was let via a proxy agent. The flat wasn't actually rentable even though it was online, and so I showed up to a locked flat, no key, with all of my bags in a new city. AirBnB refunded it and gave me 50 AirBnb Bucks (TM). I only do hotels now, unless someone else is handling the reservation.

lostdog 7y ago
The worst thing about AirBnB is that they make no effort to fix the problem. When on a vacation, and we found our AirBnB had fewer beds than advertised, we complained, and then were told that the owner wanted us "out immediately." So now we're stranded in a new city. Great. AirBnB offered to put us up anywhere cheaper than the original price we had booked. Of course, booking 2 months in advance is much cheaper than the same day, so everywhere they offered was >60 miles away. And this was an urban location, so no, we didn't have a car either. So we gave up and stayed in a hotel. Two months later, after many rounds of negotiating over the phone, AirBnB finally reimbursed us the full amount. Being stranded in a new city sucked, and it's obvious that AirBnB's policies for fixing issues are purposefully bad, so AirBnB is now a last resort for us. So I can recommend AirBnB as a great option if you're ok with a 10% chance of having nowhere to sleep that night!
- bkor 7y ago
  Via the stories from "talesfromthefrontdesk" I learned that hotels will pay a room for you in another hotel in case they cannot accommodate you (e.g. overbooking). IMO AirBNB should by law have a similar rule. This as (as you say) last minute prices are indeed significant higher than booking in advance. Further, the risk should be on AirBNB, not on the customer.
- tehlike 7y ago
  This sounds like something you can use your credit card to do charge back. Easier to deal with, almost guaranteed to happen.
- swang 7y ago
  same thing happened to me in terms of getting money back. the reason for the refund was completely different but i was very unhappy with a stay. i wrote a very lengthy description of my complaints and had pictures to back it up. a large part of the issue was they didn't clean the room. i ended up having to fight with airbnb for weeks to get the full refund (they initially refused to give back the "cleaning fee" when a large part of my complaint was the place wasn't clean). i am not totally against staying at an airbnb, but i haven't booked one since and look primarily at hotels. that bad stay ruined my plans for the last night of my trip and i barely saved $50 from staying at a nice hotel.

djohnston 7y ago

More generally, I think we're living in the moment where all successful startups acknowledge the fact that growth means more people, and more people means higher likelihoods of terrible behavior, since humans are on average a terrible organism, at least in relation to the values we espouse.

verisimilitudes 7y ago
since humans are on average a terrible organism, at least in relation to the values we espouse. Surely you recognize the irony in stating this here, considering the pieces of shit who create these startups are responsible for making the world worse at a large scale, purely for their own gain, right? It's obscene to me how you've written this. These startups ignore major laws, break numerous consumer protection laws as well, purposefully provide mechanisms intended to hurt anyone but themselves, erode societal trust, and even kill people, and yet you're blaming the people these vampires feed from?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

agoodthrowaway 7y ago

Is this just a secret shopper?

smt88 7y ago

No amount of "verification" can get me to stay in an Airbnb. There's no way for them to prevent homeowners from installing (legal) hidden cameras, and when cameras are discovered, they defer responsibility (to preserve their brand image). A hotel, by contrast, can't legally have hidden cameras and takes the full brunt of the bad PR if one is discovered.

paggle 7y ago
Case in point, when sportscaster Erin Andrews was illegally filmed nude in her hotel room, the jury awarded her $55 million with the hotel 49% liable -- which is $27 million responsibility for the hotel. Compare this consequence to the zero consequences faced by Airbnb hosts who have hidden cameras.
malkuth23 7y ago
It is definitely not legal to setup hidden cameras anywhere that would be private inside your Airbnb. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/108/s1301/text https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/108/s1301/text Also, Airbnb asks you if there are any cameras in any place on your property and it is a violation to have cameras even on your front porch without acknowledging them. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it is definitely not legal. It also happens in hotels on occasion and not always with the managements knowledge.
- smt88 7y ago
  It's legal. Airbnb didn't (doesn't?) forbid it![1] They aren't even courageous enough to do that much. > has the intent to capture an image of a private area of an individual without their consent This law is basically forbidding voyeur porn. A host could install a "security" camera in a living room. For a studio apartment, that would also be a bedroom. That's completely legal. Perhaps the camera is installed, but it's "not turned on". All legal. But once the landlord steps across the line by turning the camera on, publishing videos, etc., the law is broken, but it's already too late. 1. https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/airbnb-you-might-be-camera-whether-you-it-or-not-n974776 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/airbnb-you-might-be-ca...

lemoncucumber 7y ago

I don't see anything about addressing retaliatory negative reviews, which seems like a not insignificant part of the problem as described in the Vice article (https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/43k7z3/nationwide-fake-host-scam-on-airbnb https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/43k7z3/nationwide-fake-ho...)

heurist 7y ago
That part seemed odd to me, neither hosts or guests can see the others' reviews until after both have submitted (or the review period expires).
- matheist 7y ago
  If a guest complains to customer support, and support contacts the host about it, then the host can retaliate on the support request. guest => support: "the place was filthy, I want a refund" support => host: "guest says it was filthy is that true" host => support: "lol no" host reviews guest: "terrible, all they did was complain, beware"
- on_and_off 7y ago
  I had a shitty host retaliate against my deserved bad review by asking imaginary fees. I had to categorically refuse to pay these, Airbnb support was absolutely not helping. Actually I would not be totally surprised if Airbnb asked me to pay that the next time I do a reservation with them. It might be in a very long while though, this experience has ended my honeymoon with this service.

tempsy 7y ago

What verification tech/processes does Airbnb have at all? I haven't hosted in a few years but I don't recall ever uploading any document (i.e. a utility bill, a mortgage doc, a rental agreement, etc.) with my address on it to prove that I even live in the place that I was attempting to rent out. Seems like they've let this all slide for way too long and it's all catching up to them at the worst possible moment.

eiopa 7y ago

The 24/7 support sounds promising. This has been their Achilles heel for many years. Anecdotally, I once checked into an Airbnb with a leaky roof. After spending a good 20 minutes trying to get to a human (a small eternity when you’re in an unfortunate situation), Airbnb asked that I spend hours negotiating with my non-responsive host on a solution, which is obviously nonsensical given the situation. Being able to instantly talk to someone and feel like I am being taken care of would have made all the difference in the world. Instead, I churned from their platform.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

lomutinaci 7y ago

this will make a lot of listings go away, specially if you have to wait for them to come and verify

bredren 7y ago

When will Airbnb ban hidden cameras?

colejohnson66 7y ago
They already do. Kindof. If you don’t put it in your listing, you can be banned. Or so I’ve heard.

mattsfrey 7y ago

Anyone read the updated article? Clinton applauds twitter for banning political ads and encourages facebook to do the same.. All this does is shift all of the power to those that can buy the mainstream media outlets

adventureartist 7y ago

It seems the big thing Airbnb should be verifying is the fake "hosts", where an LLC is renting out a dozen units or more in a city as a business, but then lying to the customer that they are renting "Jack and Judy's flat".

canada_dry 7y ago

Anytime I see a story about Airbnb I like to point out: https://www.airbnbhell.com https://www.airbnbhell.com I found this site after being the victim of the now infamous "oh sorry something wrong with your flat" scam. What was supposed to be an "executive suite" turned out to be a cockroach ridden dump. Not sure if Airbnb has improved since but they were utterly useless in refunding my money, let alone helping me find alternate accommodations. I have used Airbnb since, but as a last resort and after way too much effort to separate what might be scams from (hopefully) legit listings. I agree with the poster further on who says you need to be prepared (have a plan 'b') for the chance that the booking will fall through at the last minute.

toss1 7y ago

AirBnB's existing guest verification process loks onerous, but is trivial to work-around. For some reservations, they demand to have your Driver's License image, both sides (to include he various barcodes, etc.) and some other items. For a friend who did not want the risk of having their full set of data floating around out there, I used some readily available & free tools to make some (self-consistent) edits to the documents to reduce personal identification risk in that DB of IDs. Although quite bogus, the docs passed verification instantly. So, now, AirBnB and the host now erroneously think that they have a verified guest, when they have no such thing. Their verification is not only an onerous process that crates a massive honeypot of personal-ID information just waiting to be hacked & stolen, it is also a farce insofar as filtering out even any mildly motivated person, whether intent on protecting their privacy, or on scamming. Dubious that their host-side listing will be any more valid.

say_it_as_it_is 7y ago
Know the risks. This is known as fraud and it is considered a crime in most developed regions in the world. It is an intentional false representation of fact intended to mislead. Deception in the case of short term accomodations (AirBnB, VRBO) can lead to legal injury. You are at risk of having a criminal record. While this may seem fine because you're not intending to do anything malicious, situations outside of your control may arise during your stay and your fraud will be revealed. If nothing happens during your stay, you will likely get away with this kind of fraud. The problem is that you're risking having a criminal record just to avoid a third party having temporary possession of your drivers license. Guests at a hotel or motel always share their drivers license at the front desk. When you rent a car, a drivers license is required. The difference between these in-person experiences and one entirely digital is a false sense of anonymity online. This aside, drivers license identification is never saved to a database, file or anywhere if it is done correctly. Read the terms and conditions to see for yourself. The hotels, however, save that information in a database and may not remove it. In other words, online verification is more secure than in person.
abawany 7y ago
This crazy requirement for ID upload was the reason why I never completed my AirBnB profile. I wish I had thought of what you did. Instead, I use HomeAway, which didn't have such a nasty scheme for validation. It too has similar problems as AirBnB with shady hosts, last minute cancellations, etc. though.

rhacker 7y ago

Please just stop using them. I just passed up on buying a house because the neighbors were - you guessed it, an airbnb. I was lucky to have found out before I got into a contract. It's always great when you find out the reason someone is selling - isn't it?

jimmaswell 7y ago
Why would anybody care their neighbor is an AirBnB?
- throw03172019 7y ago
  Guests may be loud, lots of moving in and out, parking, late night arrivals, etc.
- dawsmik 7y ago
  He likely means they are a poorly managed AirBnB. People often throw parties, are loud, etc... when the host doesnt manage them well.
  - rhacker 7y ago
    The cars that come one day might be hip hop. The next it's loud base music that distracts everyone from what they're doing. No matter what the rules are for the AirBNB, you can't control the people arriving and leaving. That's different from having a single neighbor that leaves for work at 6am, listens to country, and gets back at home at 3. Now you have distractions all day long from random, unexpected noises at unexpected times. It's not a question of if you "can" put up with that. It's if you "would" put up with that given a choice of having a stable, quiet neighbor, or a random neighbor every day that makes different sounds (and smells - smoking? vaping? MJ?). What about police arriving, ambulances? People bring a lot of crazy.

fourmii 7y ago

I like the original premise of AirBnB, where homeowners could rent out a spare bed or their home when they were on vacation. But seems like these days, those homeowners are either all gone, or are being hugely outnumbered by scammers or AirBnB businesses. We (a group of 5 friends) just finished a trip in Vietnam and we used AirBnB3 times. And all 3 times, the listings were not exactly truthful. The worst was a listing in Hanoi that claimed to be able to fit 12 adults. When we arrived, we could only identify 4 queen beds (2 of which were jammed together in 1 room). The other 2 listings we used were in the same complex in Saigon. We booked the listings based on our criteria of having a single home with at least 5 bedrooms. Both listings turned out to be 2 separate apartments. Both are in a complex claimed to be among the first in Saigon to disallow AirBnB. Both times, we had to pretend to the receptionists that we were long term renters. We wanted AirBnB so that we could chill together in a common space. These experiences make use want to book hotels next time...

tjbiddle 7y ago

Good. Living in SEA, the number of times where I want to book an AirBnb and they advertise it as "Entire house" and it ends up being a single room and shared living is ridiculous. It takes me 10x as long to vet out and find a place out here. And even then, I'm disappointed the majority of the time.

notyourwork 7y ago
Plenty of hotels in SEA.
- tjbiddle 7y ago
  The reason I book an AirBnb is that I want my home away from home. I don't want a hotel. I want to pop into an area that I'm visiting and feel as if I have my own space.
  - notyourwork 7y ago
    There’s hotels that provide this, look for long term hotels. They will have kitchens and everything else. If those don’t work than you are going to have to gamble with Airbnb. I used to use Airbnb for same reason but found inconsistency and don’t have patience to hope the place is adequate. Therefore I went back to hotels.
    - tjbiddle 7y ago
      You still don't understand. I don't want a hotel with a kitchen and all that jazz. That's still a hotel. I want a house. I want a garden. I want a pool. I want some trees. I want a living room. I want it to be a literal home.
      - notyourwork 7y ago
        No I do, I just don’t have patience to be gambling when I travel and AirBnb is a crap shoot as of late.

break_the_bank 7y ago

My worst AirBnb experience was a bait and switch. A different unit in the same building. A lot smaller unit mind you. The host wouldn't agree but sharing pictures with Airbnb, they ruled in my favor and refunded half(after AirBnb service charges).

on_and_off 7y ago
wow... they would not even refund in full. Classy way to handle issues in your platform Airbnb.

enra 7y ago

FYI people asking about the verifications. The Plus listings (as well as lux) are all verified by someone, has specific standards, including the amenities. So if you worry about the quality, search for plus listings (hit the filters on search page and select plus) My guess this means they will extend/move more listings to the plus category over time. (Disclaimer: used to work at Airbnb)

drewbt 7y ago

It’s about time. Earlier this year I moved to Cape Town, with an Airbnb booked for the first month. I was the first guest, and the place did not meet even the most basic standards of hygiene. What’s worse is that there was still evidence of the place being used as a crack house. Needless to say, I refused to stay there and Airbnb gave a full refund. All of this could have been avoided by a simple verification system. Any new listing should, at the very least, be viewed and assessed against a list of basic standards before a paying guest arrives at the door.

bkor 7y ago
> Needless to say, I refused to stay there and Airbnb gave a full refund. I don't think that's good enough. You were relying on that accommodation. Now the worst for AirBNB is that they won't make money. So there's no incentive to do anything about it. Further, if you suddenly need to switch accommodations the last minute price will be much higher than usual. AirBNB should fix the accommodation problem they caused. They must/should offer an alternative.